800v charging capability, when?

[Joules Burn]

I have a Kia EV6 GT-L FE that can charge in less than twenty minutes from 20-80% -"IF" the f***** EA 350kW charger is working right. One out of twenty times.
It usually goes to 150 kW and I'm out ten minutes later. BFD. I still have to eat, pee, and walk around the block to prevent deep vein thrombosis.
I do many long distance road trips and I have maybe added ten minutes to my total time compared to an ICE vehicle for an all day trip. Just did Yellowstone from California in my R1S - all my hotels had "free gas" overnight. No lengthened ETA.

Chill for the charge!

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[zefram47]

800V has little to do with the battery. All the cells get charged at 5V. It's the surrounding hardware that benefits starting with the charge station. Rivian packs max out 400V (450V pack actually)stations at 225kw (500A) but thermal limits have been a topic. The RAN stations can go to 920V but interestingly only at 325A. Could be a cabinet limitation of some sort.

This. Going to 800V doesn't change the thermals of the pack itself, only the charge port and cabling associated with it...cables on the DC charger, etc. We really just fundamentally need the battery pack redesigned with better thermals in-mind and likely a larger AC compressor. Do that and you can stay at 400V and sit at 200 kW for longer than the current 15 minutes which would go a long way to making things better.

 

[Kaiju]

It's probably not as easy a thing as people want to believe.

Even if Rivian had an 800V design ready to go and it was a slam dunk upgrade, do you guys know just how much stuff has to be changed to accommodate that in production? Do you have to change the motor design to run on higher voltage? Then change the production equipment to make that new motor? You have to change the entire high voltage system with better insulation, changing all the parts if you were trying to claw anything back in resizing, then add a higher dollar inverter because you have to step up/down for everything that's not DCFC.

It does take years to shake all that out to the production level. They were committed to 400V on R2 when they ordered the production equipment two years ago.

Then there's the implied assumption that it's better and/or cheaper. The reality of it is not always so straightforward. At the moment 800V is more expensive, not less. To be honest it seems more like a marketing gimmick at present. It's better in absolute terms, sure, but just how much better is it for the cost and how often does that come into play? The GMP-E platforms on Kias and Hyundais give 5% more range for the change to 800V, which is something, but again, not earth shattering. It makes a difference for DCFC charging, but it's only most impactful when you find an 800V charger, which is not all chargers. It makes zero difference for people charging on L2.

Then there's the economic aspects with infrastructure and what sort of chargers will be the most common. People talk about things like 1 MW charging without realizing just how titanic that sort of infrastructure is. A 5-stall setup that could charge at 1 MW is about the same as you'd need to install to run 100 conventional 200-amp services for your typical new build home. Charging cars at those sorts of rates requires as much grid capacity as an entire neighborhood, on top of the costs of the charging equipment itself. You can't just plop that anywhere, especially in an area that's already built up.

Then with all that said someone installing charging stations sits down and looks at the fact that only a fraction of available vehicles can use that sort of charging capacity and they'd be losing revenue whenever it wasn't being used to its full capacity, why not put in more stalls with smaller individual chargers?

If I was betting I'd say that 800V will become the standard eventually but I'm not sure it matters as much on the surface as it seems and that's going to drag out motivating all the manufacturers to change their tooling. With the state of infrastructure I'd liken it to 5G phones in 2020. When they were first available people were sold on the super speed of new 5G capable phones but you basically couldn't get 5G service anywhere and it took years for it to catch up to where people could actually use it. Maybe it's not the answer people want, but sometimes ugly pragmatism wins.

 

[DuoRivians]

It's probably not as easy a thing as people want to believe.

Even if Rivian had an 800V design ready to go and it was a slam dunk upgrade, do you guys know just how much stuff has to be changed to accommodate that in production? Do you have to change the motor design to run on higher voltage? Then change the production equipment to make that new motor? You have to change the entire high voltage system with better insulation, changing all the parts if you were trying to claw anything back in resizing, then add a higher dollar inverter because you have to step up/down for everything that's not DCFC.

It does take years to shake all that out to the production level. They were committed to 400V on R2 when they ordered the production equipment two years ago.

Then there's the implied assumption that it's better and/or cheaper. The reality of it is not always so straightforward. At the moment 800V is more expensive, not less. To be honest it seems more like a marketing gimmick at present. It's better in absolute terms, sure, but just how much better is it for the cost and how often does that come into play? The GMP-E platforms on Kias and Hyundais give 5% more range for the change to 800V, which is something, but again, not earth shattering. It makes a difference for DCFC charging, but it's only most impactful when you find an 800V charger, which is not all chargers. It makes zero difference for people charging on L2.

Then there's the economic aspects with infrastructure and what sort of chargers will be the most common. People talk about things like 1 MW charging without realizing just how titanic that sort of infrastructure is. A 5-stall setup that could charge at 1 MW is about the same as you'd need to install to run 100 conventional 200-amp services for your typical new build home. Charging cars at those sorts of rates requires as much grid capacity as an entire neighborhood, on top of the costs of the charging equipment itself. You can't just plop that anywhere, especially in an area that's already built up.

Then with all that said someone installing charging stations sits down and looks at the fact that only a fraction of available vehicles can use that sort of charging capacity and they'd be losing revenue whenever it wasn't being used to its full capacity, why not put in more stalls with smaller individual chargers?

If I was betting I'd say that 800V will become the standard eventually but I'm not sure it matters as much on the surface as it seems and that's going to drag out motivating all the manufacturers to change their tooling. With the state of infrastructure I'd liken it to 5G phones in 2020. When they were first available people were sold on the super speed of new 5G capable phones but you basically couldn't get 5G service anywhere and it took years for it to catch up to where people could actually use it. Maybe it's not the answer people want, but sometimes ugly pragmatism wins.

I get your points. And this is the US EV state, right now.

But I’m talking about the future, so asking when Rivian is going to 800v.

Outside of the U.S., the rest of the world is rapidly going to 800v or higher. China/Korea are moving so quickly, and Europe faster than the U.S. Latin America is importing a ton of Chinese cars and their standards.

If Rivian wants to stay competitive globally, it has to adopt 800v sooner than later. Otherwise, their cars won’t be able to compete on a global level.

This is what I meant in my original post that it feels like 400v is getting outdated rapidly.

If you’re willing to accept that Rivian will primarily sell to US customers (ie greater than 90% of all Rivian customers), then I guess Rivian can stay at 400v much longer. But, this would mean a much lower market cap / stock price potential for Rivian.

Rivian’s 800v capability doesn’t mean their cars can’t charge at 400v either. People can still take longer breaks while charging too. But, they give people the ability to charge faster and Rivian ability to compete globally.

 

[Dark-Fx]

V4 superchargers do and all of them can output up to 325kw speeds. (Eventually up to 500kw I believe)

Sure, for how long?

 

[lefkonj]

It's a reward kind of thing. Is the majority of charging infrastructure capable of pushing that kind of power? Doesn't seem like it. Would it require major changes to the overall architecture? Yes. Could those resources and money be used on other things like driving dynamics, motor efficiency, battery density, etc etc? yes.

I get wanting this but it is like waiting to buy a new TV because you hear something better is coming out. If you did this then you will be waiting forever because there is always something better on the horizon.

 

[Megaman0025]

I thought by 2026 we were all going to have solid state batteries which would have a 600 mile range and charge in 10 minutes. So 800V is becoming irrelevant really fast? Do Tesla superchargers even support 800V yet?

All a bit tongue-in cheek of course, but I'm happy with the range and charging speed of my R1T, and the biggest help would be better DCFC infrastructure. There are places I can't easily get to with the current infrastructure, and 800V won't do anything to change that.

Yes V4 SC support up to 1000v actually.

 

[azbill]

V4 superchargers do and all of them can output up to 325kw speeds. (Eventually up to 500kw I believe)

V4 chargers are no better than V3 for 800V vehicles. CT can get 325 for a minute or so, because they bump the current to 900A. I have charged my Hummer at V4 and get the same charging curve as a V3. The Hummer, like the Rivian requests a maximum of 500A. The advertised 325kw assumes the vehicle can request 900A.

Even this promise of solid state and 10 minute charging, cannot be done with exiting chargers, it will take MW level chargers to do this on any decent size battery. That infrastructure does not exist today.

 

[azbill]

Yes V4 SC support up to 1000v actually.

Not today. Maybe in the future. Tesla is still only deploying V3 power supplies.

 

[emoore]

V4 chargers are no better than V3 for 800V vehicles. CT can get 325 for a minute or so, because they bump the current to 900A. I have charged my Hummer at V4 and get the same charging curve as a V3. The Hummer, like the Rivian requests a maximum of 500A. The advertised 325kw assumes the vehicle can request 900A.

Even this promise of solid state and 10 minute charging, cannot be done with exiting chargers, it will take MW level chargers to do this on any decent size battery. That infrastructure does not exist today.

That’s most because there are no V4 cabinets just V4 dispensers. So it’s really like V3.5. And 500kW would get most cars 20-80% in 10 min or less.

 

[NY_Rob]

400v vs 800v is not a deal breaker for me, rather far down the list of what I look for in an EV at the moment.

Yes, but it's another feature "they" have and Rivian doesn't.. just like CP and AA. Eventually, when buyers sit down and (hopefully) make a list of features one vehicle offers compared to another, at one point one vehicle stands out having more features than another vehicle. No 800V charging, no AA/CP, no Vehicle to Home, no local repair facilities, etc... start falling too far behind and soon you'll be out of the competition.

 

[Gen(R3)Xer]

Today, Hyundai/Kia are profitably releasing cheaper vehicles than R1 and R2 with 800v tech.

I’d have thought Rivian can wait ~2 years for the cost/benefit for 800v to catch up for them. Speaking for myself, if the next major R1 update doesn’t have 800v, I’m going to pass on it.

I think Hyundai/Kia have realized that they’ve over engineered some of their models and are now releasing more affordable models with only 400V architecture (think: EV2, 3, etc). It’s cheaper and more profitable for them.

 

[Gen(R3)Xer]

Yes, but it's another feature "they" have and Rivian doesn't.. just like CP and AA. Eventually, when buyers sit down and (hopefully) make a list of features one vehicle offers compared to another, at one point one vehicle stands out having more features than another vehicle. No 800V charging, no AA/CP, no Vehicle to Home, no local repair facilities, etc... start falling too far behind and soon you'll be out of the competition.

I completely agree with you on the repair facilities. This is a sticking point with Tesla as well. I’ve had to wait weeks to get in to have my alignment serviced instead of days with my old Honda. Everything else probably doesn’t matter to your average driver as long as they can charge at home and in public on an occasional trip.

This is the one advantages OEMs have, but do service centers across the country really have enough technicians to work on EVs? I think not.

 

[mkg3]

Sounds like there are two different discussions going on here.

One is the end consumer use case perspective today in US and the OP's point is how to be more globally competitive.

In case some of you guys have forgotten the high school physics class, W=(V)(A), so for the same amount of kWh to charge the EV cells, the greater the voltage, lower the amps. This means more efficient transmission of energy and less heat loss (Joule's Law). This is the reason why many countries are on 240V standard so that the current (amps) needed to deliver the same energy creats much less heat. Many EU countries have lots of old wiring that running 120V with the 2x the current than with 240V would fry old wires.

The thing with 800V is really a key for the R2/R3 since Rivian is gearing up as the global vehicle. To change from 400V to 800V architecture requires a compete redesign of components to be compatible with the 800V. The charing system will only perform as fast as the slowest element (there is also impedance issue too).

This means all the electronic suppliers. This is NOT like plug and play. My guess is that the initial R2 is taking the R1 gen 2 400V architecture, simplifying it to further reduce costs, then as US production ramps, there will be be Gen2 R2 and R3 with the 800V architecture to be sold globally.

When that happens is anyone's guess but I think 2027 is reasonable, given Rivian's demonstrated pace, especially R2 won't be ready until the first half of 2026. I'll bet anything that this is on their pre-planned-product-improvement roadmap.

As for when on R1? Maybe never or when Gen 3 comes along in late this decade. Rivian need to focus 100% on R2, not R1 given their financial situation.

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