Had my First Drive... very impressed, but will now almost certainly cancel my pre-order.

[JCElectricSUV]

A manual car is not the same as an EV, at least not like my Model 3. Manual transmission is great for these kind of scenarios but again because you can choose when you want to apply that breaking force.

What wheels and tires are you planning on using in Massachusetts this winter?

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[SoCal Rob]

Whether you're using the one pedal regenerative braking or the mechanical braking you're able to control the magnitude of the braking force by modulating the amount you press or release the appropriate pedals.

I hope most people understand this. I don’t have more than a couple minutes experience with OPD in an EV and I get it.

The concern some of us have is the inability to coast (neither accelerating nor braking) on a surface which is dangerously slippery. In my experience snow isn’t that bad, but ice-covered roads are very bad and, from what I recall, a layer of fresh snow over an ice-covered road is the worst. In these situations the best option may be to coast so the tires maintain whatever grip there is in case you need to steer.

Coasting with OPD seems like it would be a challenge unless (until?) Rivian offers a mode or feature to permit this. If you’ve driven in ice or snow-covered ice hopefully that makes sense.

 

[graemebshaw]

To your first point, EV’s owners will stick to them longer than ICE cars on average because they are continuously updated over the air. I have a Model Y which is 2.5 years old and still almost identical to a brand new version because new features are added OTA frequently.

Regarding your concern in winter conditions, a simple solution: get REAL winter tires. Rivian will obviously be more safe than a Jeep because of its weight but ANY car/truck on 4 seasons tires (even if they have the snow logo homologation) will be unsafe on ice. What tires do you have on your current Jeep ?

I have 35" KO2's on the Rubicon, which are triple-peak snowflake, but not dedicated snow tires. However, in general the Jeep is actually pretty good (in terms of snow) on I-87. But driving 4 hours on a highway in a Jeep is no fun in general, and ideally I want to leave her at my house up in the mountains where she belongs. The R1T was intended to be my highway cruiser to get up there, so I want highway/cruising comfort and winter safety. Very little off-roading is needed, bcos I have the Jeep for that.

 

[RivianNE]

What wheels and tires are you planning on using in Massachusetts this winter?

I haven’t seen a lot of options so far (Tirerack). I use the Bridgestone Blizzak with the Highlander and MichelinX-Ice for the model 3. I like the Blizzak better but I feel like it will hit the range, which is why I decided to go with the X-Ice for the 3. Any suggestions? I am going right now with the AT wheels and I heard the tires are snow rated so that could be an option although in one of the reviews they said the tires weren’t that great on snow.

 

[crashmtb]

A manual car is not the same as an EV, at least not like my Model 3. Manual transmission is great for these kind of scenarios but again because you can choose when you want to apply that breaking force.

I find in the model S I’m driving today, for example, that I modulate throttle similarly to how I might in a manual car, if that makes sense. Using throttle modulation/coasting to slow down before I might go for the brake pedal. In. An EV letting off the throttle just has more effect

 

[André]

I have 35" KO2's on the Rubicon, which are triple-peak snowflake, but not dedicated snow tires. However, in general the Jeep is actually pretty good (in terms of snow) on I-87. But driving 4 hours on a highway in a Jeep is no fun in general, and ideally I want to leave her at my house up in the mountains where she belongs. The R1T was intended to be my highway cruiser to get up there, so I want highway/cruising comfort and winter safety. Very little off-roading is needed, bcos I have the Jeep for that.

Triple-peak snowflake tires will have a good traction in snow BUT be are still very slippery on ice under braking and even just side winds at cruising speed. Getting dedicated winter tires if you drive in winter conditions frequently is the only way to drive at speed in confidence

 

[zefram47]

I have 35" KO2's on the Rubicon, which are triple-peak snowflake, but not dedicated snow tires.

Very important to note, the 3PMSF rating ONLY refers to traction while accelerating on packed snow. There's no qualification for braking, turning, or anything to do with ice. A dedicated winter tire will always outperform 3PMSF AT tires, often by a large margin.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=125

 

[messinator]

It's been said a million times but ice is my only concern with this car. I have nightmares about driving back from Whistler this year with freezing rain forming ice on the road. I could see the bus ahead of me drifting laterally (at a dead stop) due to the conditions, can't imagine that doubling the weight of the vehicle would make it any better. Yes, snow tires and yes go slow but I just wonder how much of an issue it'll be (in a condition you really shouldn't drive in anyways TBF)

 

[Blaine]

Your first point is one that I've heard a mililon times from non-EV owners when they wanted to shit on Teslas back when they were new. After 4 years with my model 3, I can tell you for sure that is not a thing. Yeah, at first it feels like you're driving a cell phone, but there's still so much more to the vehicles than the UI. I've owned over 20 cars in my lifetime, most of which I've purchased new. I've had lots of "drivers cars" in my time (RX7s, Miatas, S2000, M3, etc) and I've never kept a car as long as I've kept my Tesla. I just LOVE driving it. I'm expecting the same feeling about the Rivian whenever I can get it, and my 3 will become my wife's, so it'll stay in the house.

I'll give the other side of the coin, here: I've owned 4 EVs, including a Model 3 LR, and now I'm back to driving a couple small, light, manual gas cars.

I'd be happy if we still owned a couple of our EVs, especially given current gas prices, but there's something about a small/light/manual car, for me, especially one that's sorta unique, as well.

My current thought is: One EV and one nimble, manual ICE is probably the perfect combo for me.

So, some people do find a stronger connection to certain cars or types of cars than another. The Model 3 was a little sterile and seeing several basically identical Model 3s every week didn't help. Great car, but not great enough that I wanted to keep it more than I wanted to take advantage of the great resale value and go back to a manual ICE.

It's just personal preference, but lots of people have chimed in that they love their EVs and don't miss their ICE, so I figured I'd put my two cents in that it does happen occasionally.

 

[EBEG]

One day when I was 12, I couldn't get our lawnmower started. My dad came home, made a quick adjustment, and it started immediately. He looked at me and said, "It's 90% operator." Driving in snow and ice is 90% operator, with the best operators looking at forecasts and changing driving times because they don't want to get close to the point where they will lose control. For those times when it gets unexpectedly bad or you simply must get from A to B - swallow pride, turn on the hazards and drive slow.

 

[SoCal Rob]

One day when I was 12, I couldn't get our lawnmower started. My dad For those times when it gets unexpectedly bad or you simply must get from A to B - swallow pride, turn on the hazards and drive slow.

You won‘t get an argument from me about hazards and driving slowly when conditions warrant it. I think the concern is the time between the realization that things are unexpectedly bad up until the driver has successfully transitioned to hazards and driving slowly. It’s been decades since I’ve had to deal with those conditions but I still remember those short times as being very important if you wanted to maintain control of your vehicle.

I remember driving home on the PA Turnpike one night approaching a slight downhill stretch and realizing that the wet road might be icy and not wet. After verifying that it was definitely ice on the road I stayed on the clutch and didn’t touch the brakes to prevent breaking traction and possibly slamming into the guardrail at an upcoming slight curve to the left. I was able to stay on the road because of that tactic combined with the slight snow ruts left from earlier vehicles.

My question is: How would this have turned out in a vehicle which could easily break traction unless you’re able to finesse OPD to precisely match your tire speed to the vehicle’s (possibly changing) speed all while on a very slippery surface? I guess the way I picture it is that OPD works great when you have feedback (vehicle is going too fast so you ease pressure on the pedal and vehicle is going too slow so you apply more pressure to the pedal) but in a situation where you’re deprived of the feedback because the surface is too slippery I don’t know if it is possible to modulate OPD to emulate coasting.

 

[André]

Very important to note, the 3PMSF rating ONLY refers to traction while accelerating on packed snow. There's no qualification for braking, turning, or anything to do with ice. A dedicated winter tire will always outperform 3PMSF AT tires, often by a large margin.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=125

Absolutely… and this easy to understand why as 3PMSF tires have the threads to provide traction but lack the softer compound that stays soft in freezing conditions. 4 seasons tires compound becomes as hard as an hockey puck in these conditions.

 

[FrankieJ]

About a month ago I got to see and drive the R1T for the first time, and was super impressed with the entire package. It is beautiful piece of technology and I am sure many people will make many happy memories with the vehicle. However, the experience helped cement my opinion that the R1T doesn't quite fit my needs/use case, for two reasons:

The first reason is the least significant, but perhaps the most surprising. As I said, I think the R1T is a wonderful piece of technology. But it didn't feel much like a machine – between the UI and the inherent nature of all EV's, its mechanical character felt hidden from me. It made me realize that EV's are perhaps destined to become disposable consumer products that people switch out every few years, like a new iPhone. People generally have very little emotional attachment to their *actual* phones, only to the content and apps on them. And I wonder if that is what it will be like in an EV world. Very different than how I feel about "Blubicon", my Jeep Rubicon 392, which is like a member of the family and will never be replaced.

The second reason is really the point for this post (to ask advice from current owners about snowy highway driving). I need a vehicle to comfortably and safely get me from NYC to the Adirondacks every weekend, which is a 240 mile 4-hour drive up I-87. Now, it seems like I-87 is frequently unplowed when I drive it (Fri night or Sat morning), and several stretches have high winds. The winter temp is often in the single digits or below. Over the past two years, I have had several butt-clenching moments when my vehicle started sliding at highway speeds. One time I got pushed sideways by the wind across two icy lanes, at 50 mph, and only just managed to catch it before hitting the curb. It's scary enough in an ICE SUV or the Jeep (with snow tires). The thought of such a slide in a 7000lb R1T (with more torque and less feedback) terrifies me. Surface streets don't scare me because the speeds are so manageable. But snowy/icy/windy highways... ugh.

So my question before I cancel the order is whether any of the Colorado owners have experience driving the R1T in terrible conditions on the highway? Does the extra weight/momentum help or hurt?

btw, if I do cancel, I would be happy to explore ways to pass on my pre-price-hike reservation to someone. Not sure if it is possible/allowed. But if so, it might save someone some money.

Not sure when you preordered but why in the world would you give up the pre price hike reservation when you will have a vehicle that will be worth in the secondary market $30-$40K more than you paid for it. Having said that, I would much rather have owners keep their vehicles when so many others are waiting anxiously to receive theirs. While I could have easily sold mine for $50K more than I paid for it I have no interest in getting rid of it.

 

[graemebshaw]

You won‘t get an argument from me about hazards and driving slowly when conditions warrant it. I think the concern is the time between the realization that things are unexpectedly bad up until the driver has successfully transitioned to hazards and driving slowly. It’s been decades since I’ve had to deal with those conditions but I still remember those short times as being very important if you wanted to maintain control of your vehicle.

I remember driving home on the PA Turnpike one night approaching a slight downhill stretch and realizing that the wet road might be icy and not wet. After verifying that it was definitely ice on the road I stayed on the clutch and didn’t touch the brakes to prevent breaking traction and possibly slamming into the guardrail at an upcoming slight curve to the left. I was able to stay on the road because of that tactic combined with the slight snow ruts left from earlier vehicles.

My question is: How would this have turned out in a vehicle which could easily break traction unless you’re able to finesse OPD to precisely match your tire speed to the vehicle’s (possibly changing) speed all while on a very slippery surface? I guess the way I picture it is that OPD works great when you have feedback (vehicle is going too fast so you ease pressure on the pedal and vehicle is going too slow so you apply more pressure to the pedal) but in a situation where you’re deprived of the feedback because the surface is too slippery I don’t know if it is possible to modulate OPD to emulate coasting.

This is really well laid out, and is precisely what I have been wondering about. And although some of my other posts perhaps paint a picture of a reckless driver, I am in fact super cautious. My white-knuckle moments have all come when the road conditions have rapidly and temporarily changed, and sometimes even when it appears to be improving, leading to higher traffic speeds but with the danger hidden (for example, with snowfall receding but with patches of ice lurking underneath and sudden gusts of wind).

None of the reviews of the R1T I have seen deal with this issue, perhaps because most people either (a) test the car in nicer weather, or (b) only go into deep snow off-road, which we know the R1T handles beautifully. Most of the owner of the existing EV's on the road would probably never dream of driving on I-87 (for example) in rapidly changing, icy conditions. I certainly have seen very few Teslas out in those conditions. And so the real-world test set is also small. It just doesn't represent a significant portion of the design case for most EVs. It probably was not a design-case for the regen controller. Can it be handled via an OTA? Not sure. Is there a bypass/shunt that can be employed in the regen circuit that can be applied if the stability control systems detect loss of traction? Or does it need a engagable drive-clutch somehow?

 

[EBEG]

This is really well laid out, and is precisely what I have been wondering about. And although some of my other posts perhaps paint a picture of a reckless driver, I am in fact super cautious. My white-knuckle moments have all come when the road conditions have rapidly and temporarily changed, and sometimes even when it appears to be improving, leading to higher traffic speeds but with the danger hidden (for example, with snowfall receding but with patches of ice lurking underneath and sudden gusts of wind).

None of the reviews of the R1T I have seen deal with this issue, perhaps because most people either (a) test the car in nicer weather, or (b) only go into deep snow off-road, which we know the R1T handles beautifully. Most of the owner of the existing EV's on the road would probably never dream of driving on I-87 (for example) in rapidly changing, icy conditions. I certainly have seen very few Teslas out in those conditions. And so the real-world test set is also small. It just doesn't represent a significant portion of the design case for most EVs. It probably was not a design-case for the regen controller. Can it be handled via an OTA? Not sure. Is there a bypass/shunt that can be employed in the regen circuit that can be applied if the stability control systems detect loss of traction? Or does it need a engagable drive-clutch somehow?

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...he-holy-grail-of-awd-systems-rivian-r1t.6069/

According to EE, the torque vectoring is engaged for acceleration AND deceleration (regen) and is constantly updating. Basically, according to EE, the R1T will do a better job modulating the torque to maintain the intended direction of the vehicle on any surface or changing surface than a human could hope to accomplish, even under deceleration (regen). Physics still apply, but it appears the R1T should be better at keeping one going straight than pretty much any vehicle out there. Maybe it's only 80% operator in an R1T.

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