$80 to Fast Charge Your Rivian!

ironpig

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The engineer in me did this math long ago…

Using the EPA ratings for highway (52 kWH/100mi) and charging at $.31/kWH, equates to paying $4.06/gallon in an SUV that gets 25 mpg highway.

I use 25 mpg because that’s as good as one will reasonably get from a full-size 3-row SUV these days. Considering premium is hovering around $3.90-4.10 right now, I don’t expect to save anything on road trips. My home charging rates are $.13/kWH, so over a year I expect to save about $1200 by driving the R1S. Certainly a handy savings, but a far cry from the more efficient (and smaller) vehicles offered by other manufacturers.

Like it or not, we will be driving the electron guzzlers of the EV movement. A bit ironic given the climate-focused branding, but that’s where we are. At least the Hummer EV will make us look a bit more responsible.
That's exactly the most important point. I think some people assume because they are being an EV its going to be cheap and efficient, but it's an 8000 lb Truck. It's not an efficient people mover.

With my Tesla, I charge 99% at home (with more solar than we use) but I think I'll charge more on the road with the Rivian and I expect rates will continue to go up.
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Eeyore

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I think an entire generation+ has had their image of Canada adversely skewed by South Park.

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south-park-blame-canada.jpg


It's horrific(ly funny)!

There are many links to the song, but after recent events, I'm reluctant to attach them here.
I freaking LOVE Canada. Well at least British Columbia as that is the only province I've been to. Without exception, the people have been polite and kind. I'm not saying they put up with bullshit, just that they are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are also a reasonable, polite individual. It's up to you to prove to them that you are an asshole.

I'd move to Vancouver Island when I retire except I'd be too far from my daughter if I did that.
 

DuckTruck

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I freaking LOVE Canada. Well at least British Columbia as that is the only province I've been to. Without exception, the people have been polite and kind. I'm not saying they put up with bullshit, just that they are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are also a reasonable, polite individual. It's up to you to prove to them that you are an asshole.

I'd move to Vancouver Island when I retire except I'd be too far from my daughter if I did that.
I agree with all you said about the good folks up there. While I love B.C., the people I've met in visits to Alberta were great, as well. Do yourself a favor and visit Banff and Lake Louise sometime when the crowds aren't there. The pic below is from late May and the air was a bit cold.

Oddly, we were there in early October one year and had wonderful weather, without any crowds, even when visiting the Banff Springs Hotel. I know the locals will give you that old line we frequently use around here: "If you don't like the weather, stick around five minutes", but it was still decently comfortable outside at 2 in the morning during our five nights there.

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BSH_492526_Banff-Springs-Winter.jpg


When you cross the Continental Divide from Radium Hot Springs, B.C. to get over the top to Banff, you'll be amazed by the views pretty much the entire way. When at Lake Louise, it's worth the extra drive S.W. to Moraine Lake and/or North to Jasper to see The Icefields. You'll need to hit the Ranger Station just up the hill from Radium H.S. for a Park Pass, as most all of the trip from Radium H.S. on is in Provincial Parks, and they have no sense of humor about not having a pass, and also for speeding. Check out Canmore and Banff for places to stay.

That's just the Western edge of Alberta, but a great stop on your way East to explore more of the country. BTW, I now have no one to blame but myself for the earworm of Gordon Lightfoot's "Alberta Bound" now running through my head.

If you push the play button, don't blame me!

 

Monkey

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And this ignores their installation costs and the costs for them to by electricity assuming your local area had demand pricing.
Not ignoring anything. Fully aware of all the installation and operational costs. And I know that prices will find a way to better normalize through use, proliferation and competition. I’m fully aware that they may need to charge what they do at many/most locations to make the economics work. And yet, they could still be charging more than the service is worth, hence gouging the customer. No additional demand charges here either. Of course, they use areas like ours to subsidize other places that have the same or less usage with higher energy costs. On the flip side, our real estate costs are approaching California Crazy lately, so no savings there. Partnerships like WalMart and EA eliminate much of the rental costs. Same with Tesla SuperCharger locations. Tesla usually handles all the installation maintenance, the property owner supplies the location in hopes that the chargers will attract more people to park there to charge and patronize their tenants.

Ironically there’s a couple gas stations in town who have added some fast chargers of their own. They have some of the best rates I’ve seen, but it falls in line with their existing business model. That is sell the fuel as cheap as necessary to just undercut the local competition and make the profits on snacks and drinks and whatever else they can sell while I’m there. Stuck there charging an EV for 40 minutes? Captive audience. Why do you think EA and WalMart have their partnership? The EA chargers at the WalMart down the street from me, 8 charge bays in total, always have at least 2 chargers in use 24/7.

will be interesting to see how it all works out for the future. I see lots of people using the local Tesla and EA chargers, yet everyone I know with an EV tries to do as much charging at home, rather than these chargers if they can. Our residential and small business electrical rates are low with no time of day restrictions. There are some time of day plans that have cheaper rates overnight, but they really jack up the rate during the day. Works for people with not much going on during the day at their home I guess. But for those with a couple AC units running in the summer or those of us who work from home running other things, it's better to stay on the constant rate plan..
 

SeaGeo

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Not ignoring anything. Fully aware of all the installation and operational costs. And I know that prices will find a way to better normalize through use, proliferation and competition. I’m fully aware that they may need to charge what they do at many/most locations to make the economics work. And yet, they could still be charging more than the service is worth, hence gouging the customer. No additional demand charges here either. Of course, they use areas like ours to subsidize other places that have the same or less usage with higher energy costs. On the flip side, our real estate costs are approaching California Crazy lately, so no savings there. Partnerships like WalMart and EA eliminate much of the rental costs. Same with Tesla SuperCharger locations. Tesla usually handles all the installation maintenance, the property owner supplies the location in hopes that the chargers will attract more people to park there to charge and patronize their tenants.

Ironically there’s a couple gas stations in town who have added some fast chargers of their own. They have some of the best rates I’ve seen, but it falls in line with their existing business model. That is sell the fuel as cheap as necessary to just undercut the local competition and make the profits on snacks and drinks and whatever else they can sell while I’m there. Stuck there charging an EV for 40 minutes? Captive audience. Why do you think EA and WalMart have their partnership? The EA chargers at the WalMart down the street from me, 8 charge bays in total, always have at least 2 chargers in use 24/7.

will be interesting to see how it all works out for the future. I see lots of people using the local Tesla and EA chargers, yet everyone I know with an EV tries to do as much charging at home, rather than these chargers if they can. Our residential and small business electrical rates are low with no time of day restrictions. There are some time of day plans that have cheaper rates overnight, but they really jack up the rate during the day. Works for people with not much going on during the day at their home I guess. But for those with a couple AC units running in the summer or those of us who work from home running other things, it's better to stay on the constant rate plan..
Seeing you're on CO, are one of the stations the one Out Of Spec showed that was installed with a pack to avoid demand charges?

"And yet, they could still be charging more than the service is worth, hence gouging the customer. "

If the economics don't currently make sense, that doesn't read like price gouging to me.

Even without demand charges, I really don't see how it makes sense right now without a subsidy, or installation costs dropping by a massive amount. The ROI at even $0.30/kwh in profit sucks if a station runs more than $100,00 without accounting for any form of overhead costs.

In my mind gouging is if EA were making money hand over fist on the installations. I've yet to see an example of a high powered installation routinely making money yet. At least at costs less than. $0.5/kwh.

For comparison, Ionity is about $0.90/kwh across much of Europe. Fastned is about the same, or slightly less.
 
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ja_kub_sz

ja_kub_sz

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Their pricing isn't gouging customers. They're (generally) losing money on charging at the moment, and those stations can easily cost 300k to install. If anything, the pricing is way too low.

First, with demand pricing in a lot of areas, if someone rolls in to a station with a Taycan while a Mach e is charging and and ID.4 is charging or something that single combination of charging could cost them $20,000 to $40,000 depending on how utilities handle demand charges. Do the math to figure out how many charges they would have to do in a month at a station to cover even $20,000 in cost.

Also, remember that the average cost per kwh for residential customers is say $0.12/kwh. So if they charge $0.31/kwh to members that's only $0.20/kwh. If a station costs $300,000 (or more) to install, they have to sell more than 1.5 million kwh to cut even without *any* additional costs. If most charging sessions are say 50 kwh, that's 31,500 charging sessions. Which is like 30 years of full time usage.

I'd encourage people to read the PDF that's linked at the link below from a utility in NY. Then think about the potential draw of a typical EA station. To avoid demands fees they're tossing in huge batteries as well. So consider the additional costs of those.
https://www.nyserda.ny.gov/All-Prog...or-Your-Business/Understanding-Demand-Charges

Charging costs
https://propertymanagerinsider.com/how-much-do-commercial-dc-fast-chargers-cost-2/
Those are some really good points, but...

"After the Dieselgate emissions cheating scandal broke in 2015, Volkswagen set up Electrify America, an electric-vehicle charging network. Spending $2 billion on building and promoting the charging infrastructure in the U.S. was part of the automaker's settlement with the U.S. government."

So VW losing money was the point, this was supposed to be restitution. This just bugs me to know that very same company that was responsible for such widespread fraud is now charging some of the highest prices for electricity at their charging stations.

Also what kind of spillover effect will this have on residential and commercial electricity pricing?

10 years ago gas prices were nearly the same in the US, vs electricity which has gone up from $0.09/kWh to $0.12/kWh.
 

DuckTruck

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Those are some really good points, but...

"After the Dieselgate emissions cheating scandal broke in 2015, Volkswagen set up Electrify America, an electric-vehicle charging network. Spending $2 billion on building and promoting the charging infrastructure in the U.S. was part of the automaker's settlement with the U.S. government."

So VW losing money was the point, this was supposed to be restitution. This just bugs me to know that very same company that was responsible for such widespread fraud is now charging some of the highest prices for electricity at their charging stations.

Also what kind of spillover effect will this have on residential and commercial electricity pricing?

10 years ago gas prices were nearly the same in the US, vs electricity which has gone up from $0.09/kWh to $0.12/kWh.
When you say "So, VW losing money was the point, this was supposed to be restitution", I think it's better to look at the point being "for what you did, you will have to spend $2 billion building out infrastructure good for all EV's and the air we all breathe." It also has the benefit of driving VW to do the best they can to use the system they're building to their own advantage. In other words, VW now is incented to embrace building and selling more EV's.

During and after building out their system, forcing them to artificially subsidize rates more than they are would make it difficult for other networks to afford building their networks and attract customers to their charging stations. As EA already competes with many vendors out there, many with lower rates, their own rates will come under downward pressure over time. Whether their rates are competitive or not will impact how will they do as a going concern.

Regarding the overall cost of electricty for all purposes, converting to electric vehicles from ICE-power, will likely reduce pressure on gas prices, while raising pressure on electrical prices. I think it's safe to say that adding so many more electric vehicles each and every year will somewhat adversely impact electricity rates going forward. Even if late night home-charging helps to smooth out electrical production curves, electric autos and trucks will still demand a huge and expanding amount of electricity, and that's not cheap, especially with the green and renewable mandates out there.

Public Utility Commissions around the country require providers to show their financials in a fairly transparent manner in the rate-making process. The PUC's have strong mandates to take care of the public. They provide a pretty balanced approach between caring for the needs of the customers and the needs of each provider. They want to make sure prices are fair and the power is stable. Because we will need more energy to address more EVs, electricity prices overall likely will see upward pressure as we build the means for extra production.
 
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JayinNJ

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Tesla rates have increased since 2017. I haven't supercharged in 2 years so can't tell you current prices (and also vary by state).

As far as Electrify America - the $0.43 rate is for non-Pass+ Members. If you are a Pass+ Members, the rate is $0.31 per kWh plus $4 per month. Charging once pays for itself - 180 kWh × .31 = $55.80 + $4.00.

DC charging has never been cheap. With a 400 mile range, you should not need to DC charge very often.
Tesla prices for me on the east coast vary from $0.31 to $0.34 per kWh.
 

JayinNJ

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Not only is EA charging fairly expensive, but I'll tell you right now that by the time we get in our Rivians the EA infrastructure will be staggeringly overtaxed by EVs. The price is only going to go up, EA has cornered the market on fast charging.

There are usually only 1 or 2 working 350kw chargers at any EA location and most people stop at them for 30-40 minutes. I already feel lucky when one is available when I show up and I fully expect the number of non-tesla, fast charging capable EVs on the road to increase by 3x to 4x this year, if not more.

If you hook up to a 150kw charger, you're going to be there for quite a while. Think an hour and a half or more for 80% charge. TBC you won't see 150kw rates on a 150kw charger, it usually averages out to around 80kw or less.

If Rivian can get this network up and running it would be huge. Charging at Electrify America is going to be a bad proposition by the time most have their Rivian; cost aside stops will just take a very long time.

You'll get the same charging curve on the 150kW as the 350kW charger, except the peak will be different. If you are only getting 80kW at 50% state of charge on the 150kW, you should expect the same on the 350kW. So you will charge a little faster on the 350kW but usually only in the 10%-40% range then they will pretty much be the same. Expect of 5-10 minute difference.
 

Blur1t

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I think an entire generation+ has had their image of Canada adversely skewed by South Park.

sddefault.jpg


images (15).jpeg


south-park-blame-canada.jpg


It's horrific(ly funny)!

There are many links to the song, but after recent events, I'm reluctant to attach them here.
That was my favorite cartoon for a bit… 😂
 

SeaGeo

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Those are some really good points, but...

"After the Dieselgate emissions cheating scandal broke in 2015, Volkswagen set up Electrify America, an electric-vehicle charging network. Spending $2 billion on building and promoting the charging infrastructure in the U.S. was part of the automaker's settlement with the U.S. government."

So VW losing money was the point, this was supposed to be restitution. This just bugs me to know that very same company that was responsible for such widespread fraud is now charging some of the highest prices for electricity at their charging stations.

Also what kind of spillover effect will this have on residential and commercial electricity pricing?

10 years ago gas prices were nearly the same in the US, vs electricity which has gone up from $0.09/kWh to $0.12/kWh.
Quickly perusing plugshare EA doesn't seem out of line compared to others. This is also where ststion size comes in. EA is at more risk of large demand charges because they frequently have 4 to 6 charges and almost always at least one is 350 kw.

There are exceptions, where DCFC stations much cheaper, or free, but they are probablyone off stations where the owner isn't subject to demand charges. Even a lot of utility owned ones I found where 40 cents or more.

Also keep I'm mind the business models. My understanding is Chargepoint basically provides a network and sells the charger to someone. That someone is then in theory for setting their prices and maintaining the charger. But that doesn't mean the independent owner understands the economics of it, or even how to maintain a charger. There are a ton of L2 charge point chargers that are out there that just flat out don't work.

Tbh, I suspect the economics points to closer to a dollar per kwh to make these economically feasible unless large battery packs to balance load become very inexpensive, install costs drop significantly, and the stations are used as a way to help offset demand surges for utilities in a way that help the utility.

While EA/VW is on the hook ti build out the network, they do need to be able to be profitable to continue to exist. Unless there's a forced takeover of some sort.
 
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jbronkoR1T

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Not only is EA charging fairly expensive, but I'll tell you right now that by the time we get in our Rivians the EA infrastructure will be staggeringly overtaxed by EVs. The price is only going to go up, EA has cornered the market on fast charging.
do you think that in 2 or 3 years, charging stations will be all over (eg, 7-11, Costco, regular gas stations)? will it be like how ATMs are everywhere just so that the owner of the real estate can make $2 per withdrawal? Why wouldn't the same thing happen with EV chargers?
 

outdoors_jp

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I understand your concerns. When looking at longer road trips, I use ABetterRoutePlanner. This allows for very flexible inputs and full trip cost. Someone had posted about it costing $100 from Chicago to Houston. I put that route in the planner set up for my R1S at 510wh/m. It adjusted for the weather and not sure about elevations but it said final usage would be 517wh/m. (The Rivians are electron guzzlers.) My one way trip cost was $138 for 1133 miles. This was starting with a 90% charge at home so that portion is not added in and arriving with 40% charge.

Another advantage to using this route planner is it optimizes how much you need to charge at each station. So sometimes you only need 50% other times you may need 80%. I have used this to plan my normal trips I take and it is always cheaper than my gas expedition. Some trips could cost more based on available chargers and different prices but that will be greatly offset by the cheap charging at home for the majority of my driving.
 
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