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DuckTruck

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Too much capitalism here In The states. Your right though , it’s not like the EA stations are creating the electrons, they’re just allowing the access to them. Unless of course they’re running off of hydro, wind or solar, and here in Ohio I doubt that very much. Canada has a lot of things right, even though for a long time I did not think so… ?
I think an entire generation+ has had their image of Canada adversely skewed by South Park.

Rivian R1T R1S $80 to Fast Charge Your Rivian! sddefault


Rivian R1T R1S $80 to Fast Charge Your Rivian! images (15)


Rivian R1T R1S $80 to Fast Charge Your Rivian! south-park-blame-canada


It's horrific(ly funny)!

There are many links to the song, but after recent events, I'm reluctant to attach them here.
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crashmtb

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I think an entire generation+ has had their image of Canada adversely skewed by South Park.

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images (15).jpeg


south-park-blame-canada.jpg


It's horrific(ly funny)!
Fortunately, Letterkenny is correcting the record.
 

mkg3

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Price gouging is pretty strong language. They are a business and do need to be able to make a profit. I can give you an example here in Southern CA (Orange County) for EA, non-member price is .43 a KW and member price is .31 per KW.

Compared to SCE residential rates for the TOU 4-9 rate plan

winter rates
8am to 4pm .29
4pm to 9pm .43
9pm to 8am .32

summer rates week days
8am to 4pm .30
4pm to 9pm .49
9pm to 8am .30

summer rates weekends
8am to 4pm .30
4pm to 9pm .40
9pm to 8am .30

There are other ares where rates are cheaper but the above rates are why I installed Solar at this house.
I, too, am in SoOC but I must be further south than you. I'm serviced by SDG&E so my rates are quite different than yours.

I have TOU EV rate with net metering for solar panels. I do pay $16/mo for having lower super-off peak rate of $0.09/kWh from midnight to 6am during the week and until 2pm on wknd+holidays.

Of course none of this matter on a road trip. Tesla superchargers are cheaper than others (rate is dependent on location, level of service and time of the day), but there are choices for CCS. EA, EVgo, and many municipalities.

As someone noted earlier, competition will lower the cost some but the basic power source cost will set the floor regardless of the competition.

As for charging on the go, think of it in terms of the whole trip and what it costs rather than how much to "fill up the tank", so to speak....
 

DuckTruck

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Fortunately, Letterkenny is correcting the record.
Yes, indeed. I Googled the original catch phrase, but the first word was replaced by the word "Blame" in every single response.

All this political correctness makes me wonder what the "blame" is this world coming to? ?

Will all of the New Age Dictionaries now have definitions/decoders for "WTB"?
 

Cavalryscout18

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I thought EA stations were part of the settlement the govt had with VW for their Disel-gate where they were required to set up these chargers across the US. Are these same chargers now being used to gauge the consumers? I’m curious to know what the profit margins on these EA chargers are to know if that’s just the price of DC electricity or if VW is using the settlement to turn a tidy profit for their investors.
 

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SANZC02

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I, too, am in SoOC but I must be further south than you. I'm serviced by SDG&E so my rates are quite different than yours.

I have TOU EV rate with net metering for solar panels. I do pay $16/mo for having lower super-off peak rate of $0.09/kWh from midnight to 6am during the week and until 2pm on wknd+holidays.

Of course none of this matter on a road trip. Tesla superchargers are cheaper than others (rate is dependent on location, level of service and time of the day), but there are choices for CCS. EA, EVgo, and many municipalities.

As someone noted earlier, competition will lower the cost some but the basic power source cost will set the floor regardless of the competition.

As for charging on the go, think of it in terms of the whole trip and what it costs rather than how much to "fill up the tank", so to speak....
SCE is very high, I can’t get close to that rate. I did not do the prime rate for EVs, I can get a little lower rate on off prime but it effects the net metering credit I get from solar, I find it more cost effective to stay with the regular TOU rate.

Coachella Vally is better, IID charges 11.69 cents a KW so it makes it harder to justify solar there.
 

Scoiatael

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Reading through the Motor Trend write up for the R1T and this jumped out to me. $0.43 a kilowatt-hour "pre-tax". That's basically $80 bucks just to fill up your Max Pack R1T with electrons. And the scary thing is that's where we're at now, let alone where we will be. Is anybody worried about this?

What's the highest price anyone has seen for charging stations?

Back in my Model S days I think the highest I ever was charged was $0.26.

Seriously we'll be seeing $100 fill ups not too long from now on our EV adventure trips.

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I think you are thinking too much like you are driving an ICE vehicle. 90% of the time you will be charging at home. You never really want to charge to 100% either, unless you are about to go on a long trip. So even if I come home with an almost dead battery, I'm going to only be charging to 80% most likely, which is 106.4 kWh. 106.4 kWh * $0.14 = $14.90 to charge at home.

On a road trip you will be charging at worse from 10% to 80%. That would be 93.1 kWh. If you get the EA membership, which is $4 per month, you will be charged $0.31 per kWh. 93.1 kWh * $0.31 = $28.86 per charging stop. So even with 2 charging stops, you will pay $57.72. That will give you 439 miles of range charged.
 

SeaGeo

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I thought EA stations were part of the settlement the govt had with VW for their Disel-gate where they were required to set up these chargers across the US. Are these same chargers now being used to gauge the consumers? I’m curious to know what the profit margins on these EA chargers are to know if that’s just the price of DC electricity or if VW is using the settlement to turn a tidy profit for their investors.
Their pricing isn't gouging customers. They're (generally) losing money on charging at the moment, and those stations can easily cost 300k to install. If anything, the pricing is way too low.

First, with demand pricing in a lot of areas, if someone rolls in to a station with a Taycan while a Mach e is charging and and ID.4 is charging or something that single combination of charging could cost them $20,000 to $40,000 depending on how utilities handle demand charges. Do the math to figure out how many charges they would have to do in a month at a station to cover even $20,000 in cost.

Also, remember that the average cost per kwh for residential customers is say $0.12/kwh. So if they charge $0.31/kwh to members that's only $0.20/kwh. If a station costs $300,000 (or more) to install, they have to sell more than 1.5 million kwh to cut even without *any* additional costs. If most charging sessions are say 50 kwh, that's 31,500 charging sessions. Which is like 30 years of full time usage.

I'd encourage people to read the PDF that's linked at the link below from a utility in NY. Then think about the potential draw of a typical EA station. To avoid demands fees they're tossing in huge batteries as well. So consider the additional costs of those.
https://www.nyserda.ny.gov/All-Prog...or-Your-Business/Understanding-Demand-Charges

Charging costs
https://propertymanagerinsider.com/how-much-do-commercial-dc-fast-chargers-cost-2/
 
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SeaGeo

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EV charge stations will price-gouge until there’s enough competition. It’s not a good deal right now…. Tesla still has the best pricing in most places, but it’s still a price gouge. The best thing is that most people will charge up at home overnight with the exception of longer road trips, so it’s still way cheaper than filling up at the pump.
They aren't. they're losing money. Look at the costs and do the math.
 

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DuckTruck

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I thought EA stations were part of the settlement the govt had with VW for their Disel-gate where they were required to set up these chargers across the US. Are these same chargers now being used to gauge the consumers? I’m curious to know what the profit margins on these EA chargers are to know if that’s just the price of DC electricity or if VW is using the settlement to turn a tidy profit for their investors.
While one report lists their annual revenues at close to $25 million (https://growjo.com/company/Electrify_America - year not disclosed), their pricing sounds like it's not out of line with others. Of course you're right that VW's penance for Dieselgate was the obligation to fund the buildout of the EA network, to the tune of $2 billion, but it's still a functioning entity and allowed to profit from their operations. Again, with their pricing being somewhat in line with others, I think it's hard to call it gouging, at least relatively speaking.

That said, I'm sure we'll have a lot of public discourse and political wrangling in state and federal legislative bodies to determine fair pricing and reasonable profits, going forward. I haven't followed this all that carefully, but I'm assuming many Public Utility Commissions, and other agencies have, or will be weighing in on the subject to insure fairness to the citizens of their jurisdictions. At the very least, all EV manufacturers and buyers will be better off for Volkswagen's need to make up for what they did. By increasing our nationwide charging options, this will also speed up EV adoption, and deflate range anxiety.

I view them and all other networks as necessary to get across country and to gain just enough charge to get home, when needed. I'll likely not use them around town very much, if at all, unless they're free. But I'll rest easier knowing EA and other networks are out there, growing in numbers and locations. That is certainly a good thing.
 

SeaGeo

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If Rivian can get this network up and running it would be huge. Charging at Electrify America is going to be a bad proposition by the time most have their Rivian; cost aside stops will just take a very long time.
Exactly! People (not Rivian preorder holders generally) complain that RAN is closed, but it's a huge selling point for me to have a QOS with them for both reliability and to manage congestion while the other networks catch up.

Also, if Tesla does open up the supercharger network, their congestion is going to a total clusterfuck. Ignoring their 2 foot long cables.
 

DuckTruck

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Fortunately, Letterkenny is correcting the record.
Crash,

I'm an old dog and didn't get your Letterkenny reference. Subsequent research indicates I now have more bingeable viewing ahead. Bring on the snow!!!
Rivian R1T R1S $80 to Fast Charge Your Rivian! MV5BMDFjYTU5YjUtZDE5YS00NWZhLWE3ZWMtNDQ3NTkwYTk4MGZlXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMzYxMDk5ODA_._V1_.0
 

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Price gouging is pretty strong language. They are a business and do need to be able to make a profit. I can give you an example here in Southern CA (Orange County) for EA, non-member price is .43 a KW and member price is .31 per KW.
Fair point in some ways I guess. Yes, I realize they’re a business and with enough usage and competition, rates will find a way to better normalize. I still say some of it is price-gouging. Especially in areas like mine where EA is still charging > $0.39/kW for non-member price and the local commercial power rate is less than $0.9/kWh. It still costs them quite a bit to rent or own the property where the chargers are installed and our real estate isn’t cheap.
 

SeaGeo

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Fair point in some ways I guess. Yes, I realize they’re a business and with enough usage and competition, rates will find a way to better normalize. I still say some of it is price-gouging. Especially in areas like mine where EA is still charging > $0.39/kW for non-member price and the local commercial power rate is less than $0.9/kWh. It still costs them quite a bit to rent or own the property where the chargers are installed and our real estate isn’t cheap.
And this ignores their installation costs and the costs for them to by electricity assuming your local area had demand pricing.

Even without demand pricing, do some back math to figure out how long a station would take to make up the installation costs for a large DC fast charging station. It's a hell of a long time at a profit of $0.30/kwh.
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