New Battery Pack Design (not Standard Pack) & Architecture Coming in 2024 confirms Rivian CFO

[ElGuapo]

100% on quarter and year end push. Just saying there’s plenty of inventory in R1S store too. Demand isn’t infinite.

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[Twitter Fingers]

Okay - so you're argument is it would be cheaper to produce an 800v arcitecture than a 400v, then why wouldn't they do that with the max pack and get them a bigger profit? That just doesn't make sense, the whole idea of manufacturing when you're reducing costs is to streamline it. Adding a whole new BOM, new parts, more things to service, just doesn't make sense.

It is a part refresh - they've already said that, they are refreshing the battery to minimize the ecu and wiring harness usage? I'm confused why you'd see it as anything else?

Why didn't they make the max pack 800v? I'm not the super expert but it seems like it would cause problems to have 400v and 800v batteries on the same line - might as well wait. Hey, maybe we can get extra speculative and talk about whether they're also going to 48v to accompany this ECU and wiring re-design. But the cool thing is we'll know exactly what they're doing in just a few months. Enjoy your weed my man.

 

[Dark-Fx]

That's just a refresh not the next generation R1.

Rivian should be pushing hard on anything that will improve their profitability and competitive advantage. Ford is supposed to be revealing their refreshed lightning for late 2025 production at some point, and the rumour is it's also going to be an 800V platform. Rivian needs to at least beat their current main competitor to the punch. IMO the sooner the better as long as they have proven their product internally.

I just hope they don't get caught up in a race to the bottom by moving hardware into software and calling it a feature like Tesla has been doing with everything they can think of.

 

[usofrob]

One of the key things that the battery drives is the motors. So, in order to go to 800V, they'd need different motors. So, best case scenario is they bring it in with the new quad motor system, but then they'd have two different batteries. That seems the opposite of cost cutting.

The shared architecture with R2 would be the network architecture, that likely runs on 12V. So, it'd be no change for the R2 HV battery at 800 or 400V. Also, the sensors used in the R2 are likely different. So, what they'd get for reuse is the zonal design.

I do expect that if they're changing the pack design, they will likely do what they can for heat management and any other bugs that have been regularly experienced. So, *maybe* it could result in slightly more consistent charging performance.

 

[crashmtb]

One of the key things that the battery drives is the motors. So, in order to go to 800V, they'd need different motors. So, best case scenario is they bring it in with the new quad motor system, but then they'd have two different batteries. That seems the opposite of cost cutting.

The shared architecture with R2 would be the network architecture, that likely runs on 12V. So, it'd be no change for the R2 HV battery at 800 or 400V. Also, the sensors used in the R2 are likely different. So, what they'd get for reuse is the zonal design.

I do expect that if they're changing the pack design, they will likely do what they can for heat management and any other bugs that have been regularly experienced. So, *maybe* it could result in slightly more consistent charging performance.

I was told by an acquaintance who worked at rivian in a position with knowledge of forthcoming product that there would be a ‘better’ quad motor max pack coming….

 

[VSG]

My little bird told me 800v plus heat pump for better thermal management.

The ONLY thing Wall Street cares about right now is reaching profitability. The ONLY thing.

That means:

• Increasing gross income.
• Decreasing expenses.

It's pretty simple. For Rivian to placate Wall Street, they have to make the manufacturing process more efficient, reduce parts and labor costs, churn out more vehicles, and reduce service costs.

Shipping a brand-new 800V system (battery plus charging plus all the associated electronics), and/or shipping a brand-new HVAC system (based on a heat pump in addition to their current heat-sharing system) is NOT a step that will reduce any of these costs in the near term. Rivian is getting very close to reaching gross profitability now - that should happen by the shutdown - so they are NOT going to do anything to jeopardize that.

What I suggested above was addressing known and proven flaws/bugs in the current battery design, specifically the problem that results in the entire HV being replaced because of a failed component internal to the battery pack. Just fixing this and nothing else will save them MILLIONS, because $1M is about 50 HV battery replacements. These are the little things that will have big impact. Likewise with the things we know like wiring harnesses and electronics modules.

An 800V system is all-new electronics and software, and there WILL be bugs that will take them a long time to iron out. There WILL be increased service costs in the short term to deal with all the problems. This will NOT be a cost savings in the short term.

Improved thermal management may help efficiency and charging speed, but does nothing for costs at a corporate level. And a heat pump will have modest efficiency improvements because, despite the common wisdom, Rivian is not relying on resistive heating for everything. A heat pump will add hardware (=cost) and add complexity (=cost in assembly and maintenance) and will also need to go through a year+ long debugging phase where they discover the problems with this new system.

ALL of Rivian's efforts at this point are in iterating towards a MORE reliable and MORE cost-efficient platform. The new technology they are working on is targeted towards the R2 platform. Perhaps in model year 3 they might think of a major refresh, but the industry standard is more like 4-6 years between major changes in any model, so I don't think an R1 refresh is likely until 2025, one year before the R2 starts to ship. That is the schedule that will not only help to meet Wall Street expectations for 2024 but help build momentum in 2025 and 2026 when the R2 is released.

 

[usofrob]

I was told by an acquaintance who worked at rivian in a position with knowledge of forthcoming product that there would be a ‘better’ quad motor max pack coming….

Maybe the better is the quad motor going to enduro with more power than the Bosch. It'd be interesting if they then allow max pack batteries with that motor setup. I've been trying to hypothesize why they only allowed the max pack with the DM. I thought maybe it was something different about the enduro units, but I haven't been able to think of any good reason for that.

 

[DuoRivians]

I was told by an acquaintance who worked at rivian in a position with knowledge of forthcoming product that there would be a ‘better’ quad motor max pack coming….

Is it the quad motor, max pack, or both that’s “better”? ?

Also, any word on lockers?

 

[crashmtb]

Is it the quad motor, max pack, or both that’s “better”? ?

Also, any word on lockers?

1) anyone’s guess
2) no

 

[VSG]

Maybe the better is the quad motor going to enduro with more power than the Bosch. It'd be interesting if they then allow max pack batteries with that motor setup. I've been trying to hypothesize why they only allowed the max pack with the DM. I thought maybe it was something different about the enduro units, but I haven't been able to think of any good reason for that.

I would expect any Enduro quad motor to be an entirely separate refresh, and NOT included in the Q2 shutdown.

First, because it is a very big and important step from an investor's point of view that you don't want to lump in with a "reduced wiring harnesses" press release.

Second because it is not an assembly change that requires reconfiguration of the line. An Enduro quad will necessarily have the same form factor as the existing quads (and as the existing Enduro dual-motors, BTW ...), so there will be minimal changes to the assembly process, just like Rivian did not need a shutdown to start shipping dual-motor Enduro vehicles.

I do expect that Rivian will bring the quad-motor production in-house eventually, since this is something they intended from the beginning. IMO the Bosch motors have always been a risk-reduction step which was perhaps required by the early investors in order to ensure success of the company by using a known-good manufacturer for one of the critical design components.

 

[thrill]

One of the key things that the battery drives is the motors. So, in order to go to 800V, they'd need different motors...

Not really. The same concept of switching dual packs of batteries from parallel to series for 400V/800V charging can also be applied to driving 400V/800V motors as desired.

 

[usofrob]

Not really. The same concept of switching dual packs of batteries from parallel to series for 400V/800V charging can also be applied to driving 400V/800V motors as desired.

Hmmm. Now that you mention it, is that what the Hummer does? 400V for the motors?

That said, it seems seems like quite the advantage to run motors at higher voltage too for lower current (smaller cables, slightly more efficient) reasons.

 

[Dark-Fx]

but I haven't been able to think of any good reason for that.

Payload. Max pack is slightly heavier. You could end up with a configuration that wouldn't allow a driver plus 10% tongue weight of a 11k trailer.

This zonal change is likely going to mean payloads go up without any other change to the frame or body because of less weight in electronics. Of course I'd personally still like to see Rivian bump the numbers up slightly on top of that change too.

 

[thrill]

Hmmm. Now that you mention it, is that what the Hummer does? 400V for the motors?

That said, it seems seems like quite the advantage to run motors at higher voltage too for lower current (smaller cables, slightly more efficient) reasons.

Also, an 800v motor can literally run twice as fast as a 400v one, as high as 20,000 RPM (Formula One, here we come with our R1F1 . I've read studies that say 800v will be the standard much sooner than some expect, perhaps in as little as 3 years.

 

[DuoRivians]

RJ mentioned at some point they’re already working on the next version of Enduro motors. Of course, that’s pretty vague at what stage in development that means

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