Frequency of totaled Rivians

[Donald Stanfield]

I want to talk about what seems like an absurdly high rate of totalled Rivians and suggest a cause that might be good might be a gloomy forecast for Rivian. First off I acknowledge that it's really difficult to tell how frequent R1s are being totalled compared to any other vehicle in accidents but this post is going to operate from the presumption that more R1s are being totalled out as a result of accidents than the standard car.

The most obvious reasons would be higher than normal repair costs or possibly a less durable vehicle. I'm going to dispute those assertions. Its been the case for a while now that modern cars are using materials that lead to higher repair costs because crumple zones and tech features like sensors and cameras. Even if Rivian has more of this stuff than competitors its not a large amount more so increases in cost probably aren't coming from that.

If not the obvious then what is the reason for these totalled cars? I think its twofold. RJ has said the R1T has a demographic that is 70% new to trucks AND new to EVs. Trucks are bigger than your average vehicle and anyone that has driven one for a while can attest to the fact that you have to drive them differently especially at low speed. Truck's unique handling requirements require a learning curve and I think this is a cause of accidents.

Couple this with the available power of the R1s. It accelerates like a super car and that isn't at all a hyperbolic statement nor does it need a "for a truck" qualifier. Plainly stated the R1 is like giving the average driver a McLaren the size of a medium pickup truck.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who enjoys videos of inexperienced people totaling super cars. Well same theory here but with the added challenge of increased size. As someone who's not new to trucks and oversized vehicles the Rivian feels comfortable to drive and within a couple weeks I was fully back into "truck mode".

I am new to EVs but not super cars. I've driven a few that are significantly less friendly than the Rivian with similar acceleration profiles. Since I know what it feels like to be on the bubble of control, when you're out driving your grip, I take mine to that line. Like I've said before the R1 is amazingly nice to you with its torque vectoring and AWD. Still, I've done things like hammering it around a corner and feeling the 4/wheel burnout " my car is on ice" feeling. Now I really only wind it out in a particular spot that is turning onto a road that's 3 lanes wide and at a stop light controlled intersection.

Take the "minor" tree collision thread here. Not to bag on that OP, its just the most recent thread, the OP there said they mistook the accelerator for the brake and hit a tree. On a car with instant torque that almost always hooks up in and is a 3 second zero to 60 if they were 1 second away they were going 20 when they hit that tree. 1 second is not a particularly egregious lapse but in a vehicle with this kind of HP its enough.

So the Rivian is at a cross roads of inexperienced with trucks and with supercar performance for a large portion of its driver base. If I was an insurance company I'd base accident risk on both truck experience and performance car experience in addition to the standard risk factors.

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[NY_Rob]

You make some good points Donald, but with no official tally based off forum posts... it just seems the majority of the "totaled" Rivian's are from rear end accidents where even by insurance company "standards" the Rivian driver is not at fault.

Of course, some of the Rivian accidents are self inflicted, but getting rear ended is not due to the Rivian's power or performance specs or the Rivian driver inexperience.

As to why they're totaled so easily??
Well some of the sheet metal (like the hood) is full aluminum which is super soft. The sides and door skins are made of some sort of new steel/aluminum alloy specially made ($$$) just for Rivian. Unfortunately it has proven to be super soft as well and dents by just thinking about it. They also chose a pretty poor design (similar to the original Honda Ridgeline vehicle) called "Seamless" where the whole side from the rear bumper to the firewall is just one huge piece which needs to be replaced as one piece if damaged. The R1S is even worse than the R1T as more of the roof is involved if the body side panel was going to be replaced.
So you have soft body panels that dent easily- made of some exotic steel/aluminum alloy that is only supplied as the whole side of the vehicle, add to that some very expensive electronic components (fancy LED lightbars, sealed LED headlights, sealed LED tail lights, cameras and sensors) possibly being damaged and maybe a slight hit to the frame as well in a typical rear end accident. On top of all that expense, all the cameras and sensors that were replaced would have to be recalibrated and re-certified by Rivian at one of their SC... and you can see why the ins. co's are so eager to throw in the towel and total the Rivian vehicles so quickly.

Could you imagine the just the labor cost replacing the whole side of a vehicle plus all the sensors, cams, electronics, paint, electronic component re-calibration and recertification, etc..?

 

[COdogman]

I think it’s an interesting discussion, but without access to “official” data from insurance companies that determine fault/ cost, we will never really know in many cases, aside from the ones where it’s clear (being hit by another driver or a simple one vehicle hits a tree/ post/ etc…) most folks will not admit it was their fault.

I think there is something to what @Donald Stanfield is saying though. 800+ HP can get out of control quickly if you aren’t ready for it or don’t know what you are doing.

We joke about some of them around here. The guy who claimed he was “driving slowly across a field” when his R1T mysteriously flipped over, then claimed Rivian sent ”engineers” to check his truck, implying it wasn’t his fault.

There was another guy who had an accident in a parking lot and swore he didn’t hit the accelerator even though it was pretty clear to everyone here that’s what happened. He also tried to say the truck malfunctioned.

It is nearly impossible for human beings in 2023 to admit accountability for anything they do. Especially if it might be slightly embarrassing to them.

I know insurance companies track EVERYTHING, so they must be making these decisions based on information they have collected. We just have no way of knowing just how often it is happening.

 

[Oldsmobile_Mike]

This is going to be a great discussion. No disagreements with anything that's been posted so far. Just a mention that, I believe, manufacturers are designing cars to be safer for the occupants but not necessarily so for the car itself.

So while insurance may be paying out for a totaled vehicle more frequently, at least they aren't paying for years of medical expenses. I personally feel very safe in my truck, hopefully others do as well. Just don't go crushing any tiny cars with them. ?

 

[SparkyR1t]

Comment from our local body shop
Manager “ we are busier than ever in our history because all collisions these days on almost all vehicles take an extra ordinary amount of parts and labor to repair”. They don’t make cars like they used to. They are designed to absorb the impact and crush themselves to protect the occupants

 

[Riptide]

@ Donald and Rob,
Both of your assessments are good. Sounds like a combination of the two.

 

[RexRemus]

This is going to be a great discussion. No disagreements with anything that's been posted so far. Just a mention that, I believe, manufacturers are designing cars to be safer for the occupants but not necessarily so for the car itself.

So while insurance may be paying out for a totaled vehicle more frequently, at least they aren't paying for years of medical expenses. I personally feel very safe in my truck, hopefully others do as well. Just don't go crushing any tiny cars with them. ?

This. I really think this a huge part of it. Vehicles are safer for people inside and not the vehicle itself. And I'm honestly thankful for it - I had my wife, kid (4 at the time), and even a cat in a carrier in the back of a Ford Explorer coming back from a vet visit and had come to a full stop. Got rear-ended by a 20-something girl who was texting on her way to a friends birthday party. I saw it coming, watched it happen, she never even tapped the brakes and was going 50mph+ (speed limit 45). Knocked us into the people in front of us, her car was completely destroyed - but she walked away with only a few moderate injuries. The Explorer... looked like this:

Externally you'd have no clue of the severity of the crash - aside from knowing we got hit hard enough in the rear to slide forward about 8-9ft and do that much damage to the front.

But the frame... the structural components of the vehicle - toast. But they did exactly what they needed to do. I had a few cuts and bruises on my legs, my wife did end up with some neck issues and hit her knees on the dash, but nothing permanent, the kid and cat? Not a scratch.

Considering how bad that could have been, the cost of totaling both vehicles was a drop in the bucket financially. It sucks for rates to go up, and for sure it means more expensive repairs for all of us even when something is NOT totaled. But it's way cheaper than the medical expenses of the 6 people involved in this crash. Everyone more or less walked away which is amazing.

But... it comes at a price.

I also agree with the fact that putting this kind of power in the hands of a driver inexperienced with how capable these vehicles are, and how good they are at hiding just how much they weigh GREATLY contributes to "risk". If you sit in a McLaren you know what to expect. You sit in an R1S and your mind says grocery-getter, but that pedal says McLaren... There's going to be a lot of people who want to show off or just fall back on muscle memory from ICE driving - and end up getting into trouble. And that trouble will cost us all. No doubt.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

Is there any evidence to suggest that there is a absurdly high frequency?

What I see a lack of on this forum is accidents as a result of reckless driving or over reliance on driver aids. I think that's because the Rivian isn't a sports car, and there isn't much in the way of driver aids.

Sure the Rivan CAN be quick off the line. But, its speed limited and weighs 7200+ pounds.

Most of what I've seen on this forum is OOPS I messed up kind of things. Where the Rivian is very unforgiving when it comes OOPS type things, and it ends up costing a pretty penny to fix.

To my knowledge there hasn't been any driver/passenger fatality accidents yet with a Rivian.

 

[sub]

Don't forget to consider the salvage value part of the equation. The higher the salvage value, the less damage that is required for the vehicle to be totalled.

If a totalled Rivan would fetch 70K at auction, and the insurance payout was 75K, any incident with more than 5K in damages would have the insurance company pushing to have it declared a total loss. On the other hand, if the salvage value was only 10K, you would need 65K in damages before the insurance company would want to declare it totalled.

With parts still in short supply and some parts very valuable, the salvage value is higher than most other vehicles. So the amount of damage required to total the vehicle is less.

 

[Count Orlok]

Don't forget to consider the salvage value part of the equation. The higher the salvage value, the less damage that is required for the vehicle to be totalled.

If a totalled Rivan would fetch 70K at auction, and the insurance payout was 75K, any incident with more than 5K in damages would have the insurance company pushing to have it declared a total loss. On the other hand, if the salvage value was only 10K, you would need 65K in damages before the insurance company would want to declare it totalled.

With parts still in short supply and some parts very valuable, the salvage value is higher than most other vehicles. So the amount of damage required to total the vehicle is less.

I know the Count would love to buy an odometer off a totaled vehicle.

 

[DuoRivians]

My insurance premiums haven’t changed in the past year, so I don’t think the total rate is particularly abnormal.

All EVs, especially as they all move towards big aluminum castings, are at risk of being totaled if the accident is big enough. But, EVs and driver assistance tech should help prevent frequency of accidents in the first place. Just don’t be at fault ?

 

[Billybobgt]

My vehicle accident happened right around 1500 mile mark. I was at stopped at a stop light and impacted directly in the rear at probably 30mph. The truck barely moved as a result of the impact so I can say I would feel extremely safe driving in one.

The end result was a bent frame on both rear sides around where wheels and motors are at. Having to replace that frame and remove everything to do so was the largest driving factor of cost to repair. The long single panel on each side of the vehicle is another large piece.

4 months later and dealing with at fault and my own insurance it was a total loss. The actual cash value of the truck with comps was only slightly under the new cost of a truck. I also had gotten car replacement protection from USAA for $70 and that added 20% on top of the cash value. Best $70 dollars I've spent.

Can't speak to how my insurance costs will change after the accident as I'll have to give it some time to smooth out.

 

[NY_Rob]

My vehicle accident happened right around 1500 mile mark. I was at stopped at a stop light and impacted directly in the rear at probably 30mph. The truck barely moved as a result of the impact so I can say I would feel extremely safe driving in one.

The end result was a bent frame on both rear sides around where wheels and motors are at. Having to replace that frame and remove everything to do so was the largest driving factor of cost to repair. The long single panel on each side of the vehicle is another large piece.

4 months later and dealing with at fault and my own insurance it was a total loss. The actual cash value of the truck with comps was only slightly under the new cost of a truck. I also had gotten car replacement protection from USAA for $70 and that added 20% on top of the cash value. Best $70 dollars I've spent.

Can't speak to how my insurance costs will change after the accident as I'll have to give it some time to smooth out.

If you were "stopped at a stop light and impacted directly in the rear" you bear no legal or financial responsibility in causing the accident. Your insurance co will not lose any money on your claim and will subrogate any and all costs to the at fault drivers ins co... so your rates will not increase (at least due to the accident).

 

[White Shadow]

I think the big issue to consider is "frame" damage. Back when frames were actual "body-on-frame" type designs, it was less likely to result in a total loss. Of course there are still some vehicles that you can purchase new that are built body on frame, but those are getting more rare every year.

Unibody vehicles like Rivians are just simply more susceptible to extensive damage during a collision. I don't think aluminum panels helps either. On pretty much all newer unibody vehicles, if you manage to bend your frame (which is integrated into the unibody), then you're almost always going to have a total loss on your hands. Personally, I'm okay with that. First, it's often better crash protection for occupants and secondly, I don't necessarily want a crashed vehicle repaired and handed back to me.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

I think the big issue to consider is "frame" damage. Back when frames were actual "body-on-frame" type designs, it was less likely to result in a total loss. Of course there are still some vehicles that you can purchase new that are built body on frame, but those are getting more rare every year.

Unibody vehicles like Rivians are just simply more susceptible to extensive damage during a collision. I don't think aluminum panels helps either. On pretty much all newer unibody vehicles, if you manage to bend your frame (which is integrated into the unibody), then you're almost always going to have a total loss on your hands. Personally, I'm okay with that. First, it's often better crash protection for occupants and secondly, I don't necessarily want a crashed vehicle repaired and handed back to me.

Rivian is not a unibody its body on frame.

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