Top 5 Reasons Switching to a Tesla Dominated NACS Standard is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer

[Dark-Fx]

Every EVgo/EA 350kW CCS1 DCFC support 920v+ output? Is this a recent change?

And then to confirm; every 62.5kW/125kW ChargePoint station outputs 920v+? Side question; does it matter that it outputs 920v if it’s only pushing 62kW or 125kW? Isn’t the point of high voltage architecture the ability to pull 400-500kW like they do in China? Last I checked, USA doesn’t have anything faster than a 350kW station for public use.

The way Lucid, Hyundai, Porsche and Kia owners describe the high voltage experience is interesting. It’s technically faster, but often not taken advantage of. It’s “too bleeding edge”. And then because they switch to using a DC to DC booster - they charge slower than 400v cars on the same chargers. So it’s like high voltage cars are penalized at most chargers?

It does matter. Their cables are limited to 200A total, you won't get the full rating out of shared station if you don't have adequate voltage. Rivian ends up being limited to somewhere in the 80kW range on the 125 shared stations. The Hummer topped out at 120kW in my experience. I haven't used other 800V systems but GM's Ultium is on the low side of the spec.

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[2025R1S]

That is what I thought. I was pretty sure that the majority, like 75%+ of chargers, were “incompatible with 800v” - aka, your 800v car will charge either as fast as a 400v car, or even slower at 75%+ of the chargers.

It remains my belief that while 800v is neat, it is before its time, and a solution without much support (reminds me of FireWire or rambus).

That is the maximum capacity and there is no easy way to filter for them but 800v chargers are out there - reviewers have used them for vehicles that have that capacity like the Porsche Tycan.

Here is one company: https://www.noodoe.com/dc-chargers/dc-exceed

 

[Hankenstein]

13 pages in, not much left to say. It really boils down to this for me.

Can I go to any gas station in North America amd put fuel in my ICE vehicle? - Yes

Can any NACS equiped car with the right adapter charge at any CCS station? - yes

Can any CCS or Chademo vehicle charge at any NACS station?

If the answer to the last question ends up being yes, then I don't care what the standard is. Currently it isn't just the plug standard that is the problem

 

[SASSquatch]

That is what I thought. I was pretty sure that the majority, like 75%+ of chargers, were “incompatible with 800v” - aka, your 800v car will charge either as fast as a 400v car, or even slower at 75%+ of the chargers.

It remains my belief that while 800v is neat, it is before its time, and a solution without much support (reminds me of FireWire or rambus).

Um...800v is the future my friend. Nearly a dozen OEMs have committed to it (including, BTW, Rivian).

Why would you be against a standard that cuts the time in half it takes to charge your vehicle?

You aren't winning this one.

 

[2025R1S]

It sure is the future. But this won’t be the first time that present day owners of technology are penalized for being early adopters (paying a premium for features that would be underutilized or be improved upon and offered at a cheaper cost - e.g. 800v yesterday, 920v today, 1000v tomorrow).

Just because Rivian plans to support a higher voltage platform - none of us are turning down a 400v R1S. As long as the 400v R1S can get a NACS port, I’m happy

Um...800v is the future my friend. Nearly a dozen OEMs have committed to it (including, BTW, Rivian).

Why would you be against a standard that cuts the time in half it takes to charge your vehicle?

You aren't winning this one.

 

[SASSquatch]

It sure is the future. But this won’t be the first time that present day owners of technology are penalized for being early adopters (paying a premium for features that would be underutilized or be improved upon and offered at a cheaper cost - e.g. 800v yesterday, 920v today, 1000v tomorrow).

Just because Rivian plans to support a higher voltage platform - none of us are turning down a 400v R1S. As long as the 400v R1S can get a NACS port, I’m happy

Even if Rivian decided to adopt the NACS standard, you won't see it on a Rivian for years. By then the R1s will likely have moved to 800v.

Enjoy your slowed charging experience that costs more than a compatible 800v CCS charger that is 5 times as fast while getting into fights with Tesla owners for blocking 2 Tesla Super Charger ports because 0 of the 17,000 superchargers are designed with cables long enough for any EV accept Tesla.

 

[RyanLF]

Even if Rivian decided to adopt the NACS standard, you won't see it on a Rivian for years. By then the R1s will likely have moved to 800v.

Enjoy your slowed charging experience that costs more than a compatible 800v CCS charger that is 5 times as fast while getting into fights with Tesla owners for blocking 2 Tesla Super Charger ports because 0 of the 17,000 superchargers are designed with cables long enough for any EV accept Tesla.

I might be misunderstanding but, in that scenario, couldn't you just use a NACS to CCS adapter and charge at the hypothetical cheaper and better CCS station? Switching to NACS just gives us the option to use more chargers. Just like how Teslas aren't locked to only using Tesla chargers, a Rivian with NACS wouldn't be forced to only use the Tesla network.

 

[emoore]

Other than trying to get people off Elons case for not being perfect human being like everyone else that hates on him- I should rephrase the point I was trying to make, and that is, ONE STANDARD of plug is absolutely necessary. The output of the plug and the needed protocols can change, and most certainly will as cars change and voltages change, etc. And because 75 percent of EVS on the road already use NACS, and the supercharger system works really well, we need to change it. Fast.

i have a Rivian deposit, and I just put it on hold for now until we see how many more dominoes will fall.

So elon does control the NACS standard then.

 

[emoore]

I'm charging my Tesla now at RAN station in Yosemite. Free thanks to Rivian.
Lots of Teslas here but no Rivians. Perhaps they couldn't make it due to lack of charging enroute. Lots of SC on the way here.

No you aren’t.

 

[Megaman0025]

So elon does control the NACS standard then.

The standard is already set. There’s no more “control” to be had after that. Anyone is free to use it. What are you talking about?

 

[RWerksman]

All of the other charging companies are free to build out reliable CCS charging stations by the millions and let the market decide. The problem is so far they have kinda failed to do this and Tesla hasn’t, so auto manufacturers are choosing what will give their customers the best experience.

I think that is the big point here. This isn't so much a play for the NACS connector, it's a play for access to the Supercharger network. The arguably better plug just comes along for the ride.

Even if Rivian adopts it, for instance, they will still need to negotiate for access.

Should the government force these manufacturers to choose the “not the best” solution to make the minority happier?

Government is going to do whatever government is going to do. Conversely, does months of planning suddenly change because two companies announce something that is still years off? Could you imagine having to resubmit your bid after it's already approved because DOE or DOT decided, after the fact, to require NACS?

Maybe if more than 2 legit (not Apterra, cmon...) announce support...

 

[DuoRivians]

The standard is already set. There’s no more “control” to be had after that. Anyone is free to use it. What are you talking about?

As stated here, all patents for NACS still belong to Tesla. It is still listed as one of their “good faith” patents, which carries a lot of gotchas and risks for any company with their own IP.

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/can-tesla-keep-rivian-out.15956/post-346538

 

[RWerksman]

The standard is already set. There’s no more “control” to be had after that. Anyone is free to use it. What are you talking about?

Who issues updates to the standard? That's the organization with control of it.

 

[Joel]

Every EVgo/EA 350kW CCS1 DCFC support 920v+ output? Is this a recent change?

And then to confirm; every 62.5kW/125kW ChargePoint station outputs 920v+? Side question; does it matter that it outputs 920v if it’s only pushing 62kW or 125kW? Isn’t the point of high voltage architecture the ability to pull 400-500kW like they do in China? Last I checked, USA doesn’t have anything faster than a 350kW station for public use.

The way Lucid, Hyundai, Porsche and Kia owners describe the high voltage experience is interesting. It’s technically faster, but often not taken advantage of. It’s “too bleeding edge”. And then because they switch to using a DC to DC booster - they charge slower than 400v cars on the same chargers. So it’s like high voltage cars are penalized at most chargers?

This is what I have heard as well from a few Lucid and Porsche drivers.

 

[COdogman]

The standard is already set. There’s no more “control” to be had after that. Anyone is free to use it. What are you talking about?

You’re kidding, right?

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