Top 5 Reasons Switching to a Tesla Dominated NACS Standard is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer

[ohseedee]

Add Honda and Jaguar.

Tick, tick, tick...

lol reviving a thread I thought was dead

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[HaveBlue]

What's interesting is that Honda is in both camps I think. Adopting nacs or maybe just using Tesla SC and also in the manufacturer charge network consortium.

 

[emoore]

What's interesting is that Honda is in both camps I think. Adopting nacs or maybe just using Tesla SC and also in the manufacturer charge network consortium.

Would be nice if Honda made a real EV to buy.

 

[HaveBlue]

Would be nice if Honda made a real EV to buy.

Awe come on. The Honda e will be here any moment. They've been announcing it for like ten years.

 

[SASSquatch]

Maybe hold your victory lap.

Here are some of your posts on this thread that didn‘t age well (For the sake of friendly debate only, not meant to insult or be mean. Peace and love peace and love):

1. ”Why do you assume it will open up to Rivian? Rivian has announced no plans for adopting the NACS standard.”

Posted days before Rivian announced.

2. “I don't think there will be a domino effect because OEMs have invested too much into their platforms.”

Since this post Rivian, MB, Volvo/Polstar, Nissan, Honda, Jaguar/LandRover, Fisker all announced. Domino!

3. “Even if Rivian decided to adopt the NACS standard, you won't see it on a Rivian for years. By then the R1s will likely have moved to 800v.”

Since this post Rivian adopted NACS and said there are no plans for R1 to have 800v when asked during the dual motor roll out.

4. “Rivian ISN"T giving up on RAN or CCS. They are building out RAN for the next few years with CCS before even considring switching or adding NACS”

Days later said they had plans to include NACS on RAN.

5. “ 21 OEMS including huge players like Volvo, VW, Hyundai/Kia have said they are going to wait and see”….“3 OEMS have said they are adopting NACS. Do the math.”

Since this post Volvo/Polstar, MB, Nissan, Honda, Jaguar/LandRover, Fisker all announced. So now 9 vs 3 at the time (GM, Ford, Rivian).

6. “ You think it makes sense for them to not continue to build out CCS and make hundreds of thousands of people people pay for a NACS adapter to use a RAN charger that doesn’t have CCS?”

Rivan announced the adaptor would be free

7. “Number of OEMS who have agreed to make NACS a standard: 4
Number of OEMS who have not indicated they are making NACS a standard: Dozens.”

Five more OEMs announced since this post

8. ”CCS chargers outnumber NACS charging stations by a wide margin”

This was never true, but since this post RAN, EA, CP, EVGo, etc. said they’d add NACS

I could sit here an refute every one of these but I am not going to waste my time because they literally have nothing to do with the 5 points I made to start the thread.

You are responding to me saying that my 5 points are still valid and have aged well by cherry-picking statements you can argue against. Who is arguing with you at this point?

Bottom line: OEMS have banded together and made a sizable commitment to ensure a future for charging outside of TESLA that INCLUDES CCS.

This is irrefutable.

FYSA, as it relates to our beer bet, I am a fan of porters, especially this time of year.

 

[ohseedee]

Top 5 Reasons Switching to a Tesla Dominated NACS Standard is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer

1.) It will limit innovation: Tesla's system, by design, is limited to 500v. CCS can support 1000v architecture. All of these companies developing 800v architecture for their next generation models, including Rivian, would effectively be forced to go back to 400 or 500v. That means that you will have a significantly slower charging speed vs. a comparable CCS system.

*Edit 1: As others have pointed out, the NACS system has a theoretical capability to achieve 1000v but there are no existing working Superchargers that have this capability and Elon Musk has repeatedly stated Tesla has no plans to support an 800v architecture. The issue is, Elon Musk and Tesla would have undue influence in deciding future architecture if they are allowed to immediately corner the NACS charging market, which they would, if everyone just switches to NACS.

*Edit 2: Even though NACS theoretically has the capability for bi-directional charging, meaning you can charge your home in case of a power outage, Elon Musk has stated he doesn't support that and has no plans to ever implement that. Tesla would be in a position to dictate new features if they control the NACS charging infrastructure.

2.) It will cost more: Elon Musk wants to make money off of you, and the OEMS could care less: Please remember this fact. Non-Tesla vehicles are charged significantly more for using a Supercharger than native Tesla owners. That will never change.

3.) It will create a tiered class system: Tesla will always, and I mean always, prioritize its own customers when it comes to user support and user experience. This is the only way they will incentivize future owners to buy Tesla in the future. When the proverbial shit hits the fan, Tesla will turn around and blame the OEM for not implementing a software change, or hardware update, etc. Welcome to the world of Apple (Tesla) vs. Android (CCS).

4.) It will create a degraded and inefficient user experience: All existing Tesla Superchargers are designed with cabling, stall positions, and architecture for Tesla vehicles. Non-Tesla vehicles do not have the ports in the correct position which means you can either not charge at all, or you have to block another charger by positioning your non-Tesla vehicle at an awkward angle. If your vehicle supports 800v architecture like the Kia EV6, you will have significantly decreased charging speed. This cannot be easily addressed by an adapter.

5.) It invites a madman into your vehicle: You are allowing Elon Musk, purveyor of chaos and who IMHO single handedly destroyed Twitter to control your charging experience. Elon Musk will always prioritize his interests and the interests of Tesla. Irrespective of any agreements, all other OEMs are competitors. Imagine the information he can obtain from your vehicle, driver history, specifications, charging curves, etc. by controlling the charging experience. He will absolutely use that information to the advantage of Tesla and to the detriment of every other OEM.

Edit 3: Changed title to better differentiate Tesla monopoly vs NACS standard

LOL fine! I’d debate your 5 points. The reason I didnt is they are just opinions mixed with predications that have not come true yet. So it is a bit of a waste of time to argue. I called out your other statements because those have actually already been proven wrong and look a bit silly now.

1) “Tesla's system, by design, is limited to 500v.” Then your edit “As others have pointed out, the NACS system has a theoretical capability to achieve 1000v“

You were wrong, then you editited to be correct. So yeah, I guess I cant argue as I’m not sure what I’d be disagreeing with as you flipped and flopped. But originally, you were wrong and you admitted it.

2) “It will cost more:” ummm, can you share with me the announcement that Tesla is charging more To non-Tesla? I missed that. I’m not saying I dont think it WILL happen only that it has NOT. Link please

3.) “It will create a tiered class system:“ Again, please share the link where Tesla announced a tiered class system.

4.) “It will create a degraded and inefficient user experience:” Again, share with me where this happened? Maybe a video of non-Tesla’s trying to charge? Not saying it wont, but it does not exist yet, so how can you say you were right?

5.) “It invites a madman into your vehicle: “ This is an opinion and would be absolutely ridiculous for anyone to even engage. The madman bit would be like me saying: “vanilla is better than chocolate! I’m right and you are wrong!” And the “into my vehicle” part has not even happened yet.

Again, I might agree that some of these things MIGHT happen but it is a bit silly for you to say you were right and everyone else was wrong as best case you were wrong on some and not yet right or wrong on others. But you have a LONG history in this thread of being dead wrong so safe bet might be to bet against you.

Now I’ll admit that I made a prediction that is looking like it might be hard to come true. I said in the next 90 days 2 more OEMs would switch to NACS. I think like 4 switched in that time, but I got a bit full of myself and said one of them would be VW or Hyundai. I still have about 2 weeks, but probably hard for that one to come true at this point. I still think it will happen before EOY, but my 90 days is almost up.

Also big thanks to @mkhuffman for pulling me back into the vortex!!!

 

[SASSquatch]

LOL fine! I’d debate your 5 points. The reason I didnt is they are just opinions mixed with predications that have not come true yet. So it is a bit of a waste of time to argue. I called out your other statements because those have actually already been proven wrong and look a bit silly now.

1) “Tesla's system, by design, is limited to 500v.” Then your edit “As others have pointed out, the NACS system has a theoretical capability to achieve 1000v“

You were wrong, then you editited to be correct. So yeah, I guess I cant argue as I’m not sure what I’d be disagreeing with as you flipped and flopped. But originally, you were wrong and you admitted it.

2) “It will cost more:” ummm, can you share with me the announcement that Tesla is charging more To non-Tesla? I missed that. I’m not saying I dont think it WILL happen only that it has NOT. Link please

3.) “It will create a tiered class system:“ Again, please share the link where Tesla announced a tiered class system.

4.) “It will create a degraded and inefficient user experience:” Again, share with me where this happened? Maybe a video of non-Tesla’s trying to charge? Not saying it wont, but it does not exist yet, so how can you say you were right?

5.) “It invites a madman into your vehicle: “ This is an opinion and would be absolutely ridiculous for anyone to even engage. The madman bit would be like me saying: “vanilla is better than chocolate! I’m right and you are wrong!” And the “into my vehicle” part has not even happened yet.

Again, I might agree that some of these things MIGHT happen but it is a bit silly for you to say you were right and everyone else was wrong as best case you were wrong on some and not yet right or wrong on others. But you have a LONG history in this thread of being dead wrong so safe bet might be to bet against you.

Now I’ll admit that I made a prediction that is looking like it might be hard to come true. I said in the next 90 days 2 more OEMs would switch to NACS. I think like 4 switched in that time, but I got a bit full of myself and said one of them would be VW or Hyundai. I still have about 2 weeks, but probably hard for that one to come true at this point. I still think it will happen before EOY, but my 90 days is almost up.

Also big thanks to @mkhuffman for pulling me back into the vortex!!!

It is exhausting to sit here and try and respond to every one of your assertions because I'm not paid enough to do so.

I literally typed the following into Google "Tesla Charging Cost for Non-Tesla Vehicles" and got this as the top reply:

Cost for Non-Teslas
Non-Tesla vehicles charging at Superchargers will pay a slight premium over their Tesla counterparts. An early look at Superchargers that Tesla has opened up reveals that Tesla is charging about $0.10 more per kWh to charge other EVs. This is about a 25% premium over Tesla's standard rate, although Supercharger prices vary by station and time of day.

If you want each of your other assertions to also be batted down, I suggest you use Google. It's this really great search tool that allows you to look for stuff on this thing called the internet.

 

[SASSquatch]

Oh, wait - there's more.

I typed this search term "The real reason Elon Musk is opening the Tesla Network" and got this as the first hit:

https://www.businessinsider.com/tes...ger-electric-cars-charger-network-data-2023-7

Here is the punchline:

"Look into the business end of a sleek NACS charger, and the answer will be staring you in the face. The charger's trio of bigger holes are for electricity. But the two smaller ones are data ports. Tesla famously uses cellular and WiFi to collect what one investigation called a "hoard" of data about its cars and users, tracking everything from the efficiency of the braking system to how often drivers use the AC. And the ports on its chargers pull down even more information. Now, by letting Ford and GM plug into its chargers, I think Tesla may be able to siphon off data from its rivals' cars, too. That would not only give it a market advantage in the auto industry but would also supply the company with a lucrative stream of data it can commoditize and sell to others."

 

[ohseedee]

@SASSquatch you didnt site your source on it costing more so i have no idea what it’s referring to. Is it referring to the actual Super Charger usage agreements OEMs made this year with Tesla? Please share the link so we can all be as informed. As far as I know, none of those agreements have been released and no details on pricing are known. The magic dock pilot is a very different thing as that is open up to ALL CCS cars, so perhaps is that what you are quoting without siting?

Just so we are clear and talking the same thing - Several OEMs signed agreements to access the super charger network via NACS to CSS adaptors in 2024 (e.g. Rivian). ONLY OEMs that have agreements can use those Super chargers (i.e. not open to all non-Teslas). I have read ZERO details on what that agreement means in terms of pricing. You claim to have the answer, so please share links with those details. Any pricing details that don’t pertain to these agreements (e.g. the magic docks) I’m not interested in.

I’m not saying they wont charge more. I have no clue. All I am saying is it’s a year away from existing and I do not believe any details have been announced. Forgive me for not taking your word for it or trusting your copy/paste quotes as (no offense) you frequently say things with confidence that are completely wrong.

 

[SANZC02]

@SASSquatch you didnt site your source on it costing more so i have no idea what it’s referring to. Is it referring to the actual Super Charger usage agreements OEMs made this year with Tesla? Please share the link so we can all be as informed. As far as I know, none of those agreements have been released and no details on pricing are known. The magic dock pilot is a very different thing as that is open up to ALL CCS cars, so perhaps is that what you are quoting without siting?

Just so we are clear and talking the same thing - Several OEMs signed agreements to access the super charger network via NACS to CSS adaptors in 2024 (e.g. Rivian). ONLY OEMs that have agreements can use those Super chargers (i.e. not open to all non-Teslas). I have read ZERO details on what that agreement means in terms of pricing. You claim to have the answer, so please share links with those details. Any pricing details that don’t pertain to these agreements (e.g. the magic docks) I’m not interested in.

I’m not saying they wont charge more. I have no clue. All I am saying is it’s a year away from existing and I do not believe any details have been announced. Forgive me for not taking your word for it or trusting your copy/paste quotes as (no offense) you frequently say things with confidence that are completely wrong.

I think Tesla will need to add a filter on their Supercharger search map as well for SuperCharger version. My under standing is these adapters are only going to work on V3 and above, not all Superchargers.

 

[HaveBlue]

When Tesla renamed the connector to nacs I thought it was presumptuous and arrogant. Then they pulled it off by opening their network and getting others to sign up. I think it's purely a money thing to allow better utilization and expand their network further. We can watch enviously how reliable it is and want to use it. The connector isn't part of that and has flaws like ccs1 since neither can be used worldwide. Though I doubt I'll own a Tesla I have to hand it to him that he changed the auto market completely. He got the dead set auto industry to change for the future. He pulled some fast ones on people but I guess that's the thin line you ride when you are first and failing will kill the idea. How much data a car will surrender to Tesla is largely the manufacturer's choice.

 

[tk21]

Top 5 Reasons Switching to a Tesla Dominated NACS Standard is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer

1.) It will limit innovation: Tesla's system, by design, is limited to 500v. CCS can support 1000v architecture. All of these companies developing 800v architecture for their next generation models, including Rivian, would effectively be forced to go back to 400 or 500v. That means that you will have a significantly slower charging speed vs. a comparable CCS system.

*Edit 1: As others have pointed out, the NACS system has a theoretical capability to achieve 1000v but there are no existing working Superchargers that have this capability and Elon Musk has repeatedly stated Tesla has no plans to support an 800v architecture. The issue is, Elon Musk and Tesla would have undue influence in deciding future architecture if they are allowed to immediately corner the NACS charging market, which they would, if everyone just switches to NACS.

*Edit 2: Even though NACS theoretically has the capability for bi-directional charging, meaning you can charge your home in case of a power outage, Elon Musk has stated he doesn't support that and has no plans to ever implement that. Tesla would be in a position to dictate new features if they control the NACS charging infrastructure.

2.) It will cost more: Elon Musk wants to make money off of you, and the OEMS could care less: Please remember this fact. Non-Tesla vehicles are charged significantly more for using a Supercharger than native Tesla owners. That will never change.

3.) It will create a tiered class system: Tesla will always, and I mean always, prioritize its own customers when it comes to user support and user experience. This is the only way they will incentivize future owners to buy Tesla in the future. When the proverbial shit hits the fan, Tesla will turn around and blame the OEM for not implementing a software change, or hardware update, etc. Welcome to the world of Apple (Tesla) vs. Android (CCS).

4.) It will create a degraded and inefficient user experience: All existing Tesla Superchargers are designed with cabling, stall positions, and architecture for Tesla vehicles. Non-Tesla vehicles do not have the ports in the correct position which means you can either not charge at all, or you have to block another charger by positioning your non-Tesla vehicle at an awkward angle. If your vehicle supports 800v architecture like the Kia EV6, you will have significantly decreased charging speed. This cannot be easily addressed by an adapter.

5.) It invites a madman into your vehicle: You are allowing Elon Musk, purveyor of chaos and who IMHO single handedly destroyed Twitter to control your charging experience. Elon Musk will always prioritize his interests and the interests of Tesla. Irrespective of any agreements, all other OEMs are competitors. Imagine the information he can obtain from your vehicle, driver history, specifications, charging curves, etc. by controlling the charging experience. He will absolutely use that information to the advantage of Tesla and to the detriment of every other OEM.

Edit 3: Changed title to better differentiate Tesla monopoly vs NACS standard

You can go ahead and delete number 5 with your next edit. Not needed here…

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