Manchin returns to the negotiating table

[Bullitt]

Sounds like you're confusing tax liability with tax refund. if you (your household if filing jointly) pay a total of $10,000 federal throughout the year via payroll deductions then after filing taxed get a $2,000 refund your tax liability for the year was $8,000. In this case you could claim the entire credit. You can preemptively take it by reducing your payroll deductions by 7500/# of pay periods or take it lump some at the end when filing in which case your refund in my hypothetical $2,000+ $7,500= $9,500. I guess technically you could do a combination of the two.
Some people also confuse tax credit with tax deduction, the latter reduces your taxable income and would not be as beneficial in this case.

with all due respect I do not believe that’s how it works. This is the verbiage I get perpetually and as was described by my accountant. I will need to adjust withholding to go from getting around $7500 back from the feds to owing $7500 at the end of the year (Reducing payroll deductions as you mentioned). If I do get the truck in December I have one month to make that change before I lose the value of the credit. That said… definitely happy to be wrong. Would like to find out if that is the case!

“The qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle credit is a nonrefundable federal tax credit of up to $7,500,” according to Jackie Perlman, principal tax research analyst at H&R Block’s Tax Institute. “The credit reduces your tax liability dollar for dollar. Tax liability means the amount of tax figured on your net taxable income. If the credit is more than your tax liability, you won’t receive the rest of the credit.

That means, for example, that if you owe $4,000 in taxes before applying the $7,500 credit, your tax bill will be reduced to $0, but you won’t receive that extra $3,500.”

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[SANZC02]

with all due respect I do not believe that’s how it works. This is the verbiage I get perpetually and as was described by my accountant. I will need to adjust withholding to go from getting around $7500 back from the feds to owing $7500 at the end of the year (Reducing payroll deductions as you mentioned). If I do get the truck in December I have one month to make that change before I lose the value of the credit. That said… definitely happy to be wrong. Would like to find out if that is the case!

“The qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle credit is a nonrefundable federal tax credit of up to $7,500,” according to Jackie Perlman, principal tax research analyst at H&R Block’s Tax Institute. “The credit reduces your tax liability dollar for dollar. Tax liability means the amount of tax figured on your net taxable income. If the credit is more than your tax liability, you won’t receive the rest of the credit.

That means, for example, that if you owe $4,000 in taxes before applying the $7,500 credit, your tax bill will be reduced to $0, but you won’t receive that extra $3,500.”

No dis-respect but you need to find a better accountant, he is absolutely wrong.

Non-refundable only means if your tax liability is only 6k you only get 6k And cannot carry any over. Nothing to do with what you already had withheld or paid in advance.

 

[Longhorngirl]

Chances are nothing will take place this year or I don't see it taking place this year which is fine with me haha.

Yeah. I agree. For those of us with deliveries expected this year, we are safe. My delivery date is July-September 2022. And just in case my date gets pushed back into 2023 because of omicron, it is expected that the Republicans take back the House and Senate during the midterms. There definitely won’t be any changes once that happens, so I think those that have a 2023 delivery date can feel assured that the credit will be available.

 

[messinator]

What WA State match?

Proposed**

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...nveils-climate-proposals-ahead-of-budget-plan

 

[Bullitt]

No dis-respect but you need to find a better accountant, he is absolutely wrong.

Non-refundable only means if your tax liability is only 6k you only get 6k And cannot carry any over. Nothing to do with what you already had withheld or paid in advance.

In your first response you mentioned I could do it one of time ways or a combo, but above you called it how I’m describing it. A bit confused. This is my concern below.

Assume I purchase the car on Dec 23, 2022. Based on how I’ve structured my paychecks throughout the year, and with 8 days to go in the year, I’m expecting a federal return of $10,000 back to me. How does one apply the credit?

 

[SANZC02]

In your first response you mentioned I could do it one of time ways or a combo, but above you called it how I’m describing it. A bit confused. This is my concern below.

Assume I purchase the car on Dec 23, 2022. Based on how I’ve structured my paychecks throughout the year, and with 8 days to go in the year, I’m expecting a federal return of $10,000 back to me. How does one apply the credit?

Not what you expect for a refund. Look at last years form 1040 on line 24. That is the total amount of your tax liability. If nothing really changed this year for you this year will probably be about the same. If that number is over 7500 then it will be lowered by the full credit. If it is lower than 7500 then that is how much of the credit you can use, the rest will just be lost.

Now to put that in an example, that number on line 24 is 10,000. If you had 9,500 dollars withheld you would have owed 500 instead you would get 7000 back.

I am not an accountant but I can tell you this is how it works.

 

[Bullitt]

Not what you expect for a refund. Look at last years form 1040 on line 24. That is the total amount of your tax liability. If nothing really changed this year for you this year will probably be about the same. If that number is over 7500 then it will be lowered by the full credit. If it is lower than 7500 then that is how much of the credit you can use, the rest will just be lost.

Now to put that in an example, that number on line 24 is 10,000. If you had 9,500 dollars withheld you would have owed 500 instead you would get 7000 back.

I am not an accountant but I can tell you this is how it works.

I appreciate the explanation! Thank you.

 

[cc84]

Firstly I took @cc84 statement that the 2020 election was different in the context that mail in voting, by default without requesting absentee ballot, changes voting accessibility which may favor one parties base over another, not it was rigged.

This is correct.

Everyone within a given district/state would/did have the same rights and access to mail in voting, etc. By itself that shouldn’t favor one party over the other, now if one party is going to tell voters not to vote by mail, that is a choice in strategy they made.

Here's my view, which is different from yours, but I understand your point.

I have no problems with any state using Universal Mail-in voting for their state elections, if that's what the majority of that state wants, as it only affects that state. However, I don't approve of it for the National election, as it could impact the outcome in ways other states may not approve.

On the other hand policies requiring special IDs, closing of polling places, limiting of voting hours are purely meant to restrict access and make it harder vote.

I'm not aware of the above issues. It may be true in other states, but not here, or at least I've not been affected. I use my Driver's License, nothing special, for an ID and most of the time I use early voting. I've never had any trouble voting. It seems to me there is sufficient time to vote, if a person is inclined to do so. If not, they get an absentee ballot, which will be mailed to the address provided.

I don’t need a peer reviewed study, I just need to look at the platform of the different parties.

Party 1: Global warming is a myth so drill baby drill
Party 2: Global warming is a threat to our economy, national security and more so we should do something about it

I know it's sarcasm for Party 1. I don't think a response will do much good at this time. These are just my views, different from yours, yet I respect your beliefs.

 

[SeaGeo]

However, I don't approve of it for the National election, as it could impact the outcome in ways other states may not approve.

Does this go both ways? Because I'm fairly certain the other States have voting laws that my State doesn't approve of. How many vote by mail ballots are even realistically fraudulent in your wildest dreams? Conversely, how many votes are not cast because of a lack of convenience? Eyeballing the 2016 general election the States with VBM look to have exceeded the national turnout of eligible voters by 5 to 10%. That's a lot of votes not cast due to a policy decision. It should be one hell of a scandal.

I'm not aware of the above issues. It may be true in other states, but not here, or at least I've not been affected. I use my Driver's License, nothing special, for an ID and most of the time I use early voting. I've never had any trouble voting. It seems to me there is sufficient time to vote, if a person is inclined to do so. If not, they get an absentee ballot, which will be mailed to the address provided.

It's probably worth considering how this impacts others though, with some empathy sprinkled in. I'll describe my situation, and then difficulties that people in other demographics and regions are more likely to encounter.

I maintained an out of State residency while in college and then immediately moved to WA State where we have universal vote by mail. I also work an upper middle class job for an employer who gives our employees a day off to vote across the Country. I can go to the polls and stand in line, which is an absolutely foreign and absurd concept for voting to me. I've literally never voted in person. I can also fill my ballot in at home and take it to a drop off box at my local library, or mail it in. So I effectively have several days that I can vote in a relaxed manner on my own time at home. My wife and I each take a good chunk of time filling out our ballots rather than racing through them at a polling location. Neither of us votes by party.

Conversely, plenty of States don't allow no-excuse absentee voting. Texas included. So that idea doesn't really work.

So someone then has to vote in person.

Sounds like it's not a big deal. And for many people it's not. But if polling locations are open from say... 7 to 7 it can be. Especially if your area is limited in the number of polling locations. Still, 7 to 7 doesn't sound terrible, but if you are pulling 10 or 12 hour days, that my not be feasible. Shit, if you're pulling an 8 hour day and have a longer commute because you can't afford to live where you work and take an hour+ bus ride each way, it becomes untenable. Toss in that in some areas you may have to wait for hours in line to vote (which... conveniently enough tend to be in areas where certain groups of people live). If you're a single parent working a low paying job... are you finding childcare while you wait in line to vote? Do you take a day off to vote if you are already struggling to pay your bills? If you don't have a car, and you have fewer polling places in your area than a wealthier neighborhood it's a different bus ride to get to the polling place? That's probably an added hour of time. Do you take the kids with you? Are you able to get to your polling place before work ends?

We could ditch a national Holiday to make election day a holiday and try to avoid some of these issue, but again, there's a specific group of people who don't think that's a worthwhile cause. I guess it's a "power grab."

I'm just making the point that, while what you described has been easy for you, it's definitely not for others. Shit, I have several family members who would qualify for the absentee voting for Texas, but *literally* wouldn't be able to request an absentee ballot application without external help. And I know people who *literally* had to wait more than an hour at their polling location to vote. Luckily they're childless thirty-somethings.

 

[LoneStar]

this thread sure reeks of a political discussion that I thought was not allowed here

 

[Trandall]

Warning! the following is getting off topic.
@SeaGeo, I agree with everything you note above. As a combat veteran (Operation Enduring Freedom, Afghanistan) I understand that we are only free if our government is elected by and represents the full electorate, not just the ones that mostly agree with our own views. Our national elections are carried out by the various states this is specified in our constitution and I believe vitally important. What is good for NJ may not be so good for Iowa. I do have concerns over carte blanche mail in voting as they seem to be (to me at least) trickier to administer. In your example, voting out of state while attending school, or my previous situation of voting while serving at a duty station different from my home of record, it is not impossible that mail in ballots will reach the incorrect address and be returned (illegally or mistakenly) by the wrong voter. Washington state probably has administrative controls in place that are robust to keep this near zero. Texas may not, which is why adopting national voting policies are problematic. I hope this is not viewed as a partisan statement. While not required as a civilian I strive to maintain non-partisan statements while advocating for the country I love. Long live the republic.

 

[SeaGeo]

Warning! the following is getting off topic.
@SeaGeo, I agree with everything you note above. As a combat veteran (Operation Enduring Freedom, Afghanistan) I understand that we are only free if our government is elected by and represents the full electorate, not just the ones that mostly agree with our own views. Our national elections are carried out by the various states this is specified in our constitution and I believe vitally important. What is good for NJ may not be so good for Iowa. I do have concerns over carte blanche mail in voting as they seem to be (to me at least) trickier to administer. In your example, voting out of state while attending school, or my previous situation of voting while serving at a duty station different from my home of record, it is not impossible that mail in ballots will reach the incorrect address and be returned (illegally or mistakenly) by the wrong voter. Washington state probably has administrative controls in place that are robust to keep this near zero. Texas may not, which is why adopting national voting policies are problematic. I hope this is not viewed as a partisan statement. While not required as a civilian I strive to maintain non-partisan statements while advocating for the country I love. Long live the republic.

It's not/I don't see it as. I hadn't weighed in on this at all as I generally want to avoid the political aspects of associated with this thread in general (which is, tbh, a first for me ).

And yes, there are administrative issues associated with VBM. Just like there are problems associated with polling in person that people don't like to acknowledge. For example, Idaho is a "ID required" State to vote in - but you literally just have to sign an affadavit saying you are who you say you are. At least with your example with an absentee ballot you should know that you didn't receive your ballot and (should) have a way to check the status of it. At the end of the day, it'd be fairly hard to do anything at any scale with the example you made - or with impersonating someone at a polling station. If anything, it seems like it would be harder to pull that off with an absentee ballot because of the effort required to intercept a large number of ballots without raising a red flag. Hence the question of "how many illegally/mistakenly ballots can you reasonably have occur with a system like that. Even a basic one.

Washington's VBM system has several layers to it. The first is similar to the one I made above. If you don't get your ballot, there's an obvious potential issue there that can be rectified. So I can imagine it would be hard to systematically grab enough ballots from people without raising a red flag, particularly when about 65% of eligible voters vote. Beyond that, WA has signature matching in place, ballot tracking (I can track where my ballot is and that it's been tracked), and a few other things. This topic came up in 2020 (no surprise) where someone I knew said he could do widespread VBM fraud with WA (no surprise, a male was running his mouth without knowing what he was talking about). When pressed he couldn't come up with a way that would reliably skirt the checks that the State has in place.

At the end of the day I look at it a bit like retail. You're going to have a random person try to do some petty theft. But it's going to be really had for someone to walk out with enough goods from the store without it at least raising a red flag. However, if you create barriers that keep your customers from getting into the store, you're probably going to take a bigger loss because the vast majority of your customers are honest.

 

[LoneStar]

with some municipalities already taking steps to allow non-citizens (read illegal aliens) the right to VOTE it seems ineffectual to raise concerns about invalid voting being amplified. Why don't we just all vote through Facebook and let Mark decide who wins (again)

 

[COdogman]

with some municipalities already taking steps to allow non-citizens (read illegal aliens) the right to VOTE it seems ineffectual to raise concerns about invalid voting being amplified. Why don't we just all vote through Facebook and let Mark decide who wins (again)

Federal law prohibits non citizens from voting in national elections. There are exactly 15 municipalities in the US who allow non citizens to vote in LOCAL elections. Even in those cases it typically only applies to non citizens who are authorized to work in the US. It's not "illegal" or "alien" to move to a new country and get a job as a resident non citizen. Our country was built by people who did exactly that.

 

[cc84]

Does this go both ways?

Yes. Voting requirements in a National election, IMO, should be the same for all states.

Conversely, plenty of States don't allow no-excuse absentee voting. Texas included. So that idea doesn't really work.

So someone then has to vote in person.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm for a person either having an excuse, or not having one. I would need to hear the argument Texas gives for not allowing the "no excuse" ballot. For now, I would be for changing that rule, but since I never use an absentee ballot, it hasn't concerned me.

I'm just making the point that, while what you described has been easy for you, it's definitely not for others.

I understand your point and agree. The point I'm trying to make, is Universal Mail-in ballots may not go to a voter's current address, or it will go to someone not planning on voting. I don't see how it would be hard for a voter to request a ballot and update/verify his address prior to the state mailing out these ballots. But to just send out ballots to a voter's last known address and to a registered voter that has decided not to participate in the election, for whatever reason, makes no sense to me. While it's generally reported that little, if any, fraud occurs with mail-in voting, why tempt someone with unused ballots.

As long as some think their way is the right and only way, and their belief is, "the end justifies the means", I would prefer ballots only going to voters that request one and not leave any unattended ballots laying around.

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