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Manchin returns to the negotiating table

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kurtlikevonnegut

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It doesn’t matter if the bill has the pro union language in there or not. Republican’s won’t vote for it at all. Reconciliation is the only way they get it passed.
I disagree, and I use the infrastructure bill as my main evidence. Politicians on both sides of the aisle love spending money more than anything else. If the Dem leadership knows they will only get 1 reconciliation bill in '22 and they will lose the house (at least) in the midterms, they will focus on the things that they know they can't get any Republican support for with their one bill and will look to get bilateral support behind the energy portions. The Republican leadership will get their pound of flesh, but I think ultimately it goes through at some point.
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It doesn’t matter if the bill has the pro union language in there or not. Republican’s won’t vote for it at all. Reconciliation is the only way they get it passed.
I may have missed something in the past few weeks, but I'm not certain Manchin and Sinema would vote for a reconciliation bill as an end run, either. It still needs a simple majority, and if at least one of them is not on board, it still languishes. There are reportedly somewhere around eight of their Democrat colleagues that may be nervously hoping this massive spending drive is halted, as their 2022 re-election campaigns will be tougher if it goes forward..
 

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I may have missed something in the past few weeks, but I'm not certain Manchin and Sinema would vote for a reconciliation bill as an end run, either. It still needs a simple majority, and if at least one of them is not on board, it still languishes. There are reportedly somewhere around eight of their Democrat colleagues that may be nervously hoping this massive spending drive is halted, as their 2022 re-election campaigns will be tougher if it goes forward..
Agree, there's been plenty of rumor many other Dems don't really support any further bills but are happy allowing Manchin and Sinema to take the heat. I submit the quickest way get Manchin and Sinema on board is to have some portion of money go straight to his coal interests and her pharma interests. I'm not sure how the public would take it, people hate Door Dash service fees.
 
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DuckTruck

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Agree, there's been plenty of rumor many other Dems don't really support any further bills but are happy allowing Manchin and Sinema to take the heat. I submit the quickest way get Manchin and Sinema on board is to have some portion of money go straight to his coal interests and her pharma interests. I'm not sure how the public would take it, people hate Door Dash service fees.
Bribery may be unpalatable, but it may be the most uber efficient way to accomplish at least a part of the stalled agenda. ?
 

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mkg3

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There's a higher chance of success for any new EV credit, it its detached from BBB bill that has no chance passing the Senate.

Its a mid-term election year and there is no support for Biden agenda based on his polling. Just remember that it was the independents that put him in the office and they are not happy about anything he has done thus far...
 

jjswan33

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There's a higher chance of success for any new EV credit, it its detached from BBB bill that has no chance passing the Senate.

Its a mid-term election year and there is no support for Biden agenda based on his polling. Just remember that it was the independents that put him in the office and they are not happy about anything he has done thus far...

Sorry the statement that Independents put him into office is nonsense. You could say that about every modern president as the independents swinging one way or the other is what decides elections... think about it.

The reality is that Biden won because he got enough moderate voters that voted for Trump over Clinton and he drove high turnout among progressives upset by Trump.

That's the problem with modern politics and a two party system, it isn't possible to please everyone that votes for you.
 

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Fortunately in terms of not furthering the inflation rampage it won't...
If they don’t spend it one way they’ll find another. I just want my free stuff and lots of it. I’m old enough that I’ll never get the bill.
 

DuckTruck

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Sorry the statement that Independents put him into office is nonsense. You could say that about every modern president as the independents swinging one way or the other is what decides elections... think about it.

The reality is that Biden won because he got enough moderate voters that voted for Trump over Clinton and he drove high turnout among progressives upset by Trump.

That's the problem with modern politics and a two party system, it isn't possible to please everyone that votes for you.
Regardless of who put him in office, something will have to improve to get them to do it again. Collectively, we'd all be in better shape if he could manage to make that happen. Time will tell.....
 

cc84

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.....The reality is that Biden won because he got enough moderate voters that voted for Trump over Clinton and he drove high turnout among progressives upset by Trump.....
Not wanting to get political, but your statement above is worded as factual, when It is not. It is your reality and your opinion only. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your view, or stating your view.

However, while your assessment may be shared by many, there are just as many others, that will have different opinions, with/for different reasons.
 

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jjswan33

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Not wanting to get political, but your statement above is worded as factual, when It is not. It is your reality and your opinion only. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your view, or stating your view.

However, while your assessment may be shared by many, there are just as many others, that will have different opinions, with/for different reasons.
I’d say it is more fact than opinion, and it’s not a political statement. These types of things are studied by political research groups.

So the fact is:

>90% of republicans will vote for the republican candidate
>90% of democrats will vote for the democratic candidate
Independents usually vote in the 50% +/- 10% in every election cycle

So generally elections are decided by two things:

Who gets that +/-10% of independents
Who drives base turnout in critical states

And to be clear I do understand the difference between fact and opinion and don’t need your help… thanks
 

cc84

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I’d say it is more fact than opinion, and it’s not a political statement. These types of things are studied by political research groups......
You can say whatever you want and I'm okay with it, but I don't agree with your original statement, being stated as strictly fact. Research groups and poll groups can be very wrong, such as predicting the 2016 election. They did a better job in 2020, but still it's never completely accurate.

.....And to be clear I do understand the difference between fact and opinion and don’t need your help… thanks
You're welcome. I'm not criticizing you, as whether you're right, or wrong, but challenging you on presenting your statement as strictly fact and it's not. .According to you now, what you stated originally wasn't 100% fact, but only more fact than opinion. That's acceptable to me and the way you should have presented your information to begin with, if you didn't want to be challenged by me.

Also, in your post above, you present additional "facts", without quoting your sources. However, I do generally agree with those points, without needing proof, as it would fall in line with my general thinking.

What is failed to be noted in your last post, is that the last election was unique in the way in which it was conducted, due to the pandemic. It was not a normal election. I don't expect to change your mind, nor will you mine, but I stand by my original reply, as you will yours. All good here. ?
 

jjswan33

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You can say whatever you want and I'm okay with it, but I don't agree with your original statement, being stated as strictly fact. Research groups and poll groups can be very wrong, such as predicting the 2016 election. They did a better job in 2020, but still it's never completely accurate.



You're welcome. I'm not criticizing you, as whether you're right, or wrong, but challenging you on presenting your statement as strictly fact and it's not. .According to you now, what you stated originally wasn't 100% fact, but only more fact than opinion. That's acceptable to me and the way you should have presented your information to begin with, if you didn't want to be challenged by me.

Also, in your post above, you present additional "facts", without quoting your sources. However, I do generally agree with those points, without needing proof, as it would fall in line with my general thinking.

What is failed to be noted in your last post, is that the last election was unique in the way in which it was conducted, due to the pandemic. It was not a normal election. I don't expect to change your mind, nor will you mine, but I stand by my original reply, as you will yours. All good here. ?
Please tell me you are not trying to say that the election was somehow illegitimate? Yes more states used mail in voting than in past elections but despite what Fox any other radical 'news' outlets say mail in voting is not any more prone to fraud than other types of voting. I personally live in Oregon and feel the mail in voting process is very smooth and efficient. So I would ask that you please clarify why the way the election was conducted matters?

Back to the original point at hand was the statement that somehow Biden owes it to independents because they elected him which is what I was reacting to. My opinion is that is not the case, first of all if you asked 10 independents what Biden should do you would probably get 6-8 different answers and secondly it would be foolish of him to ignore what his base wants too. I also don't particularly like statement like Biden has to do something different, It would be a lot easier to debate specific ideas than broad statements that I don't like how things are going.

Lastly, sorry my last statement was a little coarse, I still believe it is much more fact than opinion that the center of the electorate decides who wins elections but the negative part is that the right/left of the parties decides the candidates in primaries which led to my original comments about two party systems.

I am a democrat but not because I am extremely liberal. I am a scientist by training and I am very concerned with pollution and climate change and sadly one of our parties mostly believe that global warming is a hoax so I simply can't vote for candidates with that position.
 

mkg3

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....At the same time I will not drop or let go arguments that are alleging the election was somehow illegitimate. This is complete disinformation and has no place here or anywhere for that matter.
I think you're arguing with yourself.

None of us are having that argument here.
 

cc84

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......I am a democrat but not because I am extremely liberal. I am a scientist by training and I am very concerned with pollution and climate change and sadly one of our parties mostly believe that global warming is a hoax so I simply can't vote for candidates with that position........
This explains your original statement and why you believe the way you do. You have every right to believe what you perceive to be true, but to state something as fact, when it isn't, I feel needs to be challenged.

As far as Climate Change, IMO, I believe most individuals would rather not cause the Earth harm and do their part, regardless of party affiliation.

Please tell me you are not trying to say that the election was somehow illegitimate?........... So I would ask that you please clarify why the way the election was conducted matters?
My purpose of this entire conversation is to challenge your original statement as being stated as fact, which it is not. Nothing more, nothing less.

I called out Rivian, in the past, for telling half-truths, such as when they released information saying customer sales/deliveries were beginning in September. That was a half-truth. While it was true they did make sales to paying customers, they failed to mention the type of customer, or the reason(s) behind why they chose this group, making their statement a half-truth.

To answer your 1st question, no, I'm not trying to say the election was somehow illegitimate, but many believe it to be. If I believed it, I would say it. I don't have proof, nor do I expect to. I expect Biden to remain President until at least the next election cycle, provided he stays in good health. Beyond that, I have no prediction.

To answer your last question, I said this was a unique election because of the pandemic and was conducted differently from past elections. Whether it mattered or not, I have no idea. I suppose it's up to an individual to decide whether it matters to them, or not. The answer may be reflected in the mid-term and 2024 elections.

I enjoyed our conversation and apologize to those not interested. No more comments from me on this matter. Thank you.
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