Anyone worried?

ajdelange

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I will add some real numbers here, right from the EA web site:
Whenever this comes up (and it does fairly frequently) I always suggest that readers got to A Better Route Planner and try out some of the trips they make frequently and some that they think they might like to make in their Rivians. This will grant you some insights as to how long you will be charging, how far you will have to go out of your way to reach a charger and what it will cost. I think ABRPs consumption numbers are a bit pessimistic and so usually dial them down to about 450 Wh/mi.

I've been doing this since I first made my reservation at which time comparisons to trips made with a Tesla were so discouraging that I feared I would be cancelling it. Electricity would have cost more than I'd spend in gas in an SUV and charging added hours. Things are much better now both in terms of the location of stations, their power (rate at which they can charge) and the costs of charging (even though EA seems to still be on minutes even where they are permitted to sell by the kWh). According to ABRP our most common trip will be quicker in the Rivian than the Tesla (X - because of the bigger battery) as a charging stop can be eliminated.


Plus, total number of chargers is not as much of an issue as total number of sites. ... The benefit of having two 350KW units at each site is to take care of the failed unit issues, which continue to plague EA.
For the moment the main advantage of multiple stalls at a station may be enhanced probability of finding one working. This is an area where EA needs to improve and they know it, have promised to improve things and have done so to some extent. At least, in my limited checking on them, it appears that this is the case and their president has a convincing story. But the other side of the coin is, of course, that eventually vehicles using high rate CCS terminals will be fairly common and the situation we see with Tesla will emerge. I'm sure you all have seen the stories of the infamous stations in California (where BEVs are thickest) with dozens of terminals and queues a mile long. OTOH I've been to stations where I've been the only user.
 

Coast2Coast

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Relative to post, #89, about NIO, the Chinese BEV maker, and battery swapping, here's a new piece highlighting a cooperative strategy between NIO and CATL, China's largest battery company. https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/ni...n-in-august-with-catl-as-investor-report-says

The new strategy is batteries as a service - change your battery pack as you'd change your cell phone plan or streaming service. Obviously, this creates complications for BEV producers, like Rivian, but it does suggest a trend toward standardization in the energy (battery) supply front.

The desirability of being able to swap batteries is evident. So far, demand for swapping has been limited, but the notion of being able to swap batteries could become a competitive advantage for companies that implement it. Wouldn't you like to upgrade or get a new battery pack whenever you wanted?

At some time, batteries as a service - separating BEVs from BEV battery packs - will be normative.
 
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Jehorton

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Relative to post, #89, about NIO, the Chinese BEV maker, and battery swapping, here's a new piece highlighting a cooperative strategy between NIO and CATL, China's largest battery company. https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/ni...n-in-august-with-catl-as-investor-report-says

The new strategy is batteries as a service - change your battery pack as you'd change your cell phone plan or streaming service. Obviously, this creates complications for BEV producers, like Rivian, but it does suggest a trend toward standardization in the energy (battery) supply front.

The desirability of being able to swap batteries is evident. So far, demand for swapping has been limited, but the notion of being able to swap batteries could become a competitive advantage for companies that implement it. Wouldn't you like to upgrade or get a new battery pack whenever you wanted?

At some time, batteries as a service - separating BEVs from BEV battery packs - will be normative.
What happens to these battery packs after usage ?
 

Coast2Coast

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Presumably, they would be reused, but that's another business venture. Rivian has already reused batteries in rural relief projects in Puerto Rico and, I believe, some projects in and around Normal. Just like tires get recapped and reused, batteries and battery packs will be reused in the future but that's not a business Rivian has to run. Let others worry about it.
 
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Jehorton

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Presumably, they would be reused, but that's another business venture. Rivian has already reused batteries in rural relief projects in Puerto Rico and, I believe, some projects in and around Normal. Just like tires get recapped and reused, batteries and battery packs will be reused in the future but that's not a business Rivian has to run. Let others worry about it.
I was just curious
 

azbill

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Whenever this comes up (and it does fairly frequently) I always suggest that readers got to A Better Route Planner and try out some of the trips they make frequently and some that they think they might like to make in their Rivians. This will grant you some insights as to how long you will be charging, how far you will have to go out of your way to reach a charger and what it will cost. I think ABRPs consumption numbers are a bit pessimistic and so usually dial them down to about 450 Wh/mi.

I've been doing this since I first made my reservation at which time comparisons to trips made with a Tesla were so discouraging that I feared I would be cancelling it. Electricity would have cost more than I'd spend in gas in an SUV and charging added hours. Things are much better now both in terms of the location of stations, their power (rate at which they can charge) and the costs of charging (even though EA seems to still be on minutes even where they are permitted to sell by the kWh). According to ABRP our most common trip will be quicker in the Rivian than the Tesla (X - because of the bigger battery) as a charging stop can be eliminated.


For the moment the main advantage of multiple stalls at a station may be enhanced probability of finding one working. This is an area where EA needs to improve and they know it, have promised to improve things and have done so to some extent. At least, in my limited checking on them, it appears that this is the case and their president has a convincing story. But the other side of the coin is, of course, that eventually vehicles using high rate CCS terminals will be fairly common and the situation we see with Tesla will emerge. I'm sure you all have seen the stories of the infamous stations in California (where BEVs are thickest) with dozens of terminals and queues a mile long. OTOH I've been to stations where I've been the only user.
I just had a friend with a Tesla in CA tell me he got locked out of charging by one of the Tesla Semi Trucks that was plugged in and using all the stalls at a SuperCharger site. Seems their semi charging network is not ready for the new trucks that are now being tested on the roads.
 

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Wow. Just one thing and it made him the 5th richest man in the world. Wish I'd found that one thing.


Everyone wishes the same thing, but at no point should the publicity of a person deter them from being criticized. As far as I am concerned, he might be better fit for AP software that RJ, but the realm of software and car manufacturing are not apples to apples. The coupling of both intensified, but you are more likely to find more people with ability to produce the software than those who can produce a car; that's why I have much higher confidence in Rivian as a product, mind you, I am on my second Tesla.
 

LeoH

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1. I agree, more updates would be nice.

2. I would agree with you, but the thing is that when buying an electric vehicle at this point, you are accepting some serious compromises. You have longer recharge times, very poor range while towing, and a lot of unknowns with a new manufacturer. So, especially something like the Rivian that is designed to tow, you lose a lot by buying this vehicle while paying a premium. Toyota is known for its use of upgrading or buying back vehicles when entering a new market.

3. Yes, I agree with this as well. Rivian is playing the slow game and I do think they will have a superior product.

4. The lack of "Rivian" service centers all but convinces me that they will be using Ford. If not, they are way way way behind the curve in this regard. But perhaps they have hundreds of service centers being equipped right now and we just haven't been told. Charging is also still an unknown at this point, isn't it? Have they revealed what charging network they will be using?

5. If anything, this tells me that Musk views Rivian as a very serious threat.
For #2, I completely understand where you are coming from, and if I was buying the vehicle for heavy duty work, frequently long commutes, or towing capabilities, I would be just as concerned as you and most of R1T hopefuls.

For $4, Ford seems like the contender, but I think Ford also uses some third part service partner ( Cox I think ) I never owned a Ford, so I do not know what to expect for the service.
 

jjwolf120

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4. The lack of "Rivian" service centers all but convinces me that they will be using Ford. If not, they are way way way behind the curve in this regard. But perhaps they have hundreds of service centers being equipped right now and we just haven't been told. Charging is also still an unknown at this point, isn't it? Have they revealed what charging network they will be using?
They have said that they are using CCS. Exactly what capacity they will be able to charge isn't one hundred percent clear. I think they have indicated that they will be at least 150kw.

They have indicated that service will come to you. I think one of the Cox companies provides mobile service for fleets, so there is a good chance that they will work with them.
 

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Battery swapping
They have said that they are using CCS. Exactly what capacity they will be able to charge isn't one hundred percent clear. I think they have indicated that they will be at least 150kw.
They have recently stated (and reiterated when asked) 300 kW max charge rate.
 
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ajdelange

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They have said that they are using CCS.
I think it's pretty clear that the majority of our charging will be done at EA CCS stations with, as they expand it, use of Rivian's own Adventure network.

They have indicated that service will come to you. I think one of the Cox companies provides mobile service for fleets, so there is a good chance that they will work with them.
They have promised that but I expect it will be initially only. Trandport will probably be to an existing Pivit fleet maintenance center. They could be clearer on what the future will hold.
 

Coast2Coast

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Here's information on the Pivet fleet maintenance model.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/edgars...mobility-fleet-services-network/#6dff20892fae

A few items are noteworthy. Cox and Pivet will employ a network organizational model. That's an organizational model where independent operators cooperate together to deliver products and services. Providers/operators do not have to be owned or even managed by Cox and Pivet as long as they provide the quality products and services the network offers.

This means a Rivian service network could expand rapidly as independent operators, large and small, urban and rural, join the network. There would undoubtedly be training programs and quality standards to be maintained but, as Rivian branded vehicles grew in number, including commercial vehicles, think Amazon, incentives to join a Rivian service network would increase.

It's noteworthy auto dealers can join the Cox-Pivet service network. Some will and some won't, but as the number of Rivians increase on the road, incentives to be part of the Rivian service network will grow, especially if Rivians become BEV leaders in terms of quality, reliability and customer satisfaction.

Maybe I'm reading too much into last year's Cox/Pivet business model announcement, as it's too soon to know how things will play out. But I'm a big fan of network organizational models wherein businesses expand without owning or managing all of the operating units in a network. Sort of like a franchise, only better, because Rivian/Cox/Pivet won't care what service facilities will look like as long as they can deliver the service and warranty work that's desired.

That's why a Rivian service network may expand rapidly. In addition to existing Pivet fleet providers, it's an opportunity for auto service providers, numbering in the tens of thousands and likely suffering in the pandemic, to get new business and grow in a new service area, the BEV market, with huge potential. A new way to provide auto services may disrupt the industry.

If Rivian's service partnership with Cox & Pivet becomes what it may, it may well rival Rivian vehicles in terms of its potential to change the industry.
 

DucRider

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A new way to provide auto services may disrupt the industry.

If Rivian's service partnership with Cox & Pivet becomes what it may, it may well rival Rivian vehicles in terms of its potential to change the industry.
I have a good relationship with the Auto Dealers Association in the area and they are fantastic in getting dealers on board for test drive events, shows, etc.
They were a bit miffed at Cox for their support/investment in Rivian and they felt a bit betrayed.
They continue to be adamant that the franchised dealer model is better for consumers, and that direct sales by manufacturers are a bad thing. They don't have much of a response when I tell them "Then you have nothing to worry about. If consumers prefer that dealer model, that is what they will support."
Both models have their strengths and weaknesses, but the various hybrid models that are emerging can capture the best of both worlds. In reality, dealerships are primarily service centers (that is the source of the majority of their revenue/profit), and if a corporation with lots of stores (Auto Nation, etc) decides to embrace servicing direct sales EV's (Polestar, Lucid, Rivian, etc) it could be lucrative (even without regular oil changes, etc).
 

jjwolf120

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They continue to be adamant that the franchised dealer model is better for consumers, and that direct sales by manufacturers are a bad thing.
They should have done a better job satisfying the customer then. I certainly have no interest in dealing with them.
 

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Tesla got a decent product out the door in less time....and with a shockingly small investment compared to Rivian's war chest.
The fact that Tesla can bring new models to market within 2-3 years these days sometimes causes us to forget just how long it took Tesla to bring the Model S to the market.

Tesla was founded in July 2003 and put the Model S on the market in June 2012. It took them almost five years to bring their proof-of-concept Roadster to the market in 2008, and that was basically a Lotus Elise body and chassis with a Tesla drive and electronic control system. The Model S body design was pretty much finalized by late 2008, and Tesla spent almost another four years developing the battery pack, chassis, and drive systems of the car.

Rivian was founded in 2007 and spent its first years focusing on autonomous driving technology. It was December 2017 before the alpha prototypes of the R1T and R1S were announced. (That was the same month in which Rivian, which had been operating on a financial shoestring, got its first big investment from Sumitomo. The monster investments from Amazon and Ford came much later.) The Rivian vehicles will hit the market about three and a half years after the alpha prototypes were built -- about the same length of time it took Tesla to get the Model S from alpha to production.
 
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