R1T Max Pack + Dual Motor range update from Rivian: 335, 360 and 400 miles range

[MXA121]

Are most not able to eek out ~300 miles w/their quad running 20" wheels, not in the winter of course...

You can get 300+ with Quad/Large/20 setup depending on conditions, but more likely around 280. I don't drive my truck in front wheel drive mode.

Sponsored

 

[cjones1130]

You can get 300+ with Quad/Large/20 setup depending on conditions, but more likely around 280. I don't drive my truck in front wheel drive mode.

True; in mild-warm weather I see roughly 40 miles less range when not in conserve mode.

 

[Joel]

Only standard pack is going to be LFP.

That’s what I was assuming it would mind if it was LFP.

 

[timgradywy]

10% cost for 20% more range. That's not terrible, but if you're looking for cost/benefit on range ($/mile), the wheels and tires are the way to get there.

I was a max pack + quad pre-order. There are times I would like the extra range, but I decided a truck now + more acceleration is much more useful to me and would make me much happier. I've always tried to make every car I ever bought faster or bought the fastest version that existed, so the reduced performance of the dual motor max pack was going to gnaw at me.

I made the final decision after planning some longer trips in ABRP. For long trips, the max pack gives and takes. You can go further, but then it takes longer to charge. There's not a significant time savings unless you limit your trips to a distance in between range of the large and the max pack range. I realized that either I or somebody in the car with me normally needs a break anyway after 2-4 hours, so stopping to charge for 30 minutes isn't a big deal.

If buying max pack bought 800 V charging at 350 kW, then it would be a no brainer and a legitimate time saver no matter what. The hope of this is why I held out for a long time before finally changing to large + quad. I figure that this (or something much better) will likely be in store for future variants. Quad enduro + 800 V + max pack would be amazing, but at this rate > 5 years out = new car territory.

 

[NineElectrics]

Yes not as good but will be daily at 100% instead of 85%

Let’s hope LFP has more than 85% of the energy density of NMC, then, especially in the cold. I will say from personal experience: if you regularly need close to 100%, then you’re at risk of having a bad day every so often due to unforeseen trips. It stressed me out all the time.

 

[KootenayEV]

Apparently Munro's teardown shows the Rivian's current Large pack is 9 modules in series with 72P12S of Samsung INR21700-50G cells, which are according to the datasheet I just found, are 5000mAh, but only guaranteed to have 4900mAh when new. (so forget all the stuff I said about 4800). If nominal is 3.63V, that means there is ~138.3 kWh to ~141.1kWh in the pack.

Since the modules themselves appear to be ~43.5V nominal based on this info, they can't just stack more of them in series without the voltage of the pack overall increasing. So the max pack likely has a different arrangement of cells. Doing some math, working backwards from efficiency, and assuming they are using the same cells, seems like the two most likely candidates could be:
9 modules, 84P12S(24x21), 164.7kWh, 392VNom, 9072 Cells
11 modules, 80P10S,(25x16), 159.7kWh, 399VNom, 8800 Cells

They could just add one more module in series and still stay under 500V limitation of most "400V" chargers I think...? I thought max voltage now was around 450V (nominal 392)...

But in any event, I replied because in the FAQ doc they linked in my email, they specifically state that the Max pack is more energy dense. If they are using 'dense' in the typical fashion, I would take this to mean more energy in the same volume; though whether this is from some re-arranging of the pack internals (ie at the pack level, which has been hinted at in webcast calls) or at the cell level... not sure. It pretty much has to be one of the above though, given the announcement of a Max pack R1S, and as noted elsewhere the frame on the S has nowhere to accommodate additional modules (the existing type anyways). [although I see you addressed this a bit over here]

I went back and re-listened to the Q4 call and there are a bunch of oblique references to 'new' or 'improved' technologies in the back-half of 2023; the most obvious one being Max pack, which also seems to be a line of evidence for a modified configuration to get to a Max pack, rather than just cramming more of the existing modules in the R1T.

Anyways, fun to speculate until we get to see the first tear-down!

 

[KootenayEV]

Unfortunately, Rivian is cooling limited by the original pack design they chose years ago. You can only draw so much heat from a cell when contacting only the top and bottom ends of the cell.

Tesla has a far superior cooling design that provides way more surface area contact for removing heat from individual cells because they contact the long sides of the cells vs. just the top and bottom ends as in the Rivian pack design.

Lucid also uses the plate on the end of the cells, and in one of their tech videos, they claim you can move more heat axially through the battery (ie it conducts better up/down in the 'roll', rather than through the separators etc on its way out of the 'roll' radially).

Someone on battery design . net attempted a calculation to verify, but was only a 1st order approximation so unless someone posts some more detailed modelling or actual experimentation results, who knows for sure.

 

[zipzag]

My numbers are based on the Configurator, which shows...

Quad Motor, Large Battery, 20" AT wheels: Range 274
Dual Motor, Max Batter, 20" AT wheels: Range 335

335 - 274 = 61
61/274 = 22%

Quad Motor Large Battery Configurator

Dual Motor Max Battery Configurator

Max pack only adds 35 miles on AT. Dual motor adds the rest.

Rivian expects $7000 for 35 extra miles on the proper tire for the vehicle's design.

 

[Bmitch24]

This is speculative right now, but if the primary benefit of conserve mode is elimination of motor freewheeling resistance, we will see a reduced benefit with the dual design so actual range increases from quad to dual will be less than advertised in conserve mode since dual conserve will only reduce the resistance from one motor.

At current pricing a max/dual + Offroad package compared to dual large 21 is a 14k premium. That is a lot of money for off-road tires to keep the same range.

I was going to order a second max pack truck and sell my original, but I think now I am going to hang on to my current vehicle and pass on the opportunity. Giving up the power tonneau and the stupid fast quad acceleration during my daily driving to have a little bit more cushion on road trips doesn't make sense for me. Ignoring the massive cost difference.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Lucid also uses the plate on the end of the cells, and in one of their tech videos, they claim you can move more heat axially through the battery (ie it conducts better up/down in the 'roll', rather than through the separators etc on its way out of the 'roll' radially).

Someone on battery design . net attempted a calculation to verify, but was only a 1st order approximation so unless someone posts some more detailed modelling or actual experimentation results, who knows for sure.

Axial cooling means the heat energy can travel through the same medium to get to the end and doesn't have to exchange between mediums to get out.

 

[Rivian in CO]

As zipzag and others have pointed out, not all of the 22% range increase that my calculations show are attributed to just the Max Pack. The other part of that 22% increase is due to the Dual Motor. I've reworded my original post to make that more clear.

And the table below shows how much of the increase the Dual Motor accounts for and how much the Max Pack accounts for, both 20" and 21" wheels. (Sorry, not interested in the 22" wheels, so I left those out.)

I'll leave it to you to draw whatever conclusions you like from this information.

 

[Goose]

As zipzag and others have pointed out, not all of the 22% range increase that my calculations show are attributed to just the Max Pack. The other part of that 22% increase is due to the Dual Motor. I've reworded my original post to make that more clear.

And the table below shows how much of the increase the Dual Motor accounts for and how much the Max Pack accounts for, both 20" and 21" wheels. (Sorry, not interested in the 22" wheels, so I left those out.)

I'll leave it to you to draw whatever conclusions you like from this information.

Looks like you used pre-March 2022 pricing. Current dual motor - large pack - 20" A/T's is approximately $85K depending on color and interior.

 

[NY_Rob]

Axial cooling means the heat energy can travel through the same medium to get to the end and doesn't have to exchange between mediums to get out.

Seeing how cylindrical Li-Ion cells are constructed, there are air gaps and insulating material that will impede heat conduction at the cathode end vs. full/direct contact with the large surface area cathode material of the outer shell used in the radial (Tesla) cooling method.

I've broken down quite a few cylindrical Li-Ion cells, the contact area between the top anode cap and the cell center anode connector is tiny. look at the contact area (circled in red in the bottom photo)... just not a large path for heat to exit IMO vs. using the massive sides of the casing as Tesla does.

 

[SDH]

if you regularly need close to 100%, then you’re at risk of having a bad day every so often due to unforeseen trips. It stressed me out all the time.

I would say if you regularly need close to 100% and get stressed by range anxiety - "DON'T BUY AN EV! BUY AN ICE! "

 

[Dark-Fx]

Seeing how cylindrical Li-Ion cells are constructed, there are air gaps and insulating material that will impede heat conduction at the cathode end vs. full/direct contact with the large surface area cathode material of the outer shell used in the radial (Tesla) cooling method.

I've broken down quite a few cylindrical Li-Ion cells, the contact area between the top anode cap and the cell center anode connector is tiny. look at the contact area (circled in red in the bottom photo)... just not a large path for heat to exit IMO vs. using the massive sides of the casing as Tesla does.

While happily ignoring that the separators are typically not great thermal conductors.

Sponsored