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boneil1

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My understanding is that GM, Ford, and other established automotive manufacturers make the bulk of their earnings based primarily on selling vehicles, parts, and related services. Tesla makes a large chunk from regulatory credits because they are solely an EV manufacturer. So comparing earnings overall doesn’t strike me as a reasonable measure of efficiency and profit margins. It may be more useful to look at each manufacturer’s average profit per vehicle in a given category if you want to look at efficiency and profit margins related to the manufacturing of vehicles.
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boneil1

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My understanding is that GM, Ford, and other established automotive manufacturers make the bulk of their earnings based primarily on selling vehicles, parts, and related services. Tesla makes a large chunk from regulatory credits because they are solely an EV manufacturer. So comparing earnings overall doesn’t strike me as a reasonable measure of efficiency and profit margins. It may be more useful to look at each manufacturer’s average profit per vehicle in a given category if you want to look at efficiency and profit margins related to the manufacturing of vehicles.
You are correct. Because Ford and GM are public traded companies we can look at their quarterly earnings reports. My understanding of these charts is that they are not really improving.

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/F/ford-motor/profit-margins

I would expect Tesla's profit margin to increase in another year or two when the two new plants are at full operations. If they can't then they are not improving either.
 
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You are correct. Because Ford and GM are public traded companies we can look at their quarterly earnings reports. My understanding of these charts is that they are not really improving.

I would expect Tesla's profit margin to increase in another year or two when the two new plants are at full operations. If they can't then they are not improving either.
That’s still looking at company-wide performance. What I was trying to explain was that if you look at the average profit per vehicle per category for each manufacturer you’ll have a better indication of efficiency and profits when speaking of the manufacturing of vehicles. This is related to your earlier statement, “Nobody else is developing and improving their processes to increase speed, efficiencies and margins when manufacturing a vehicle.”

So, as an example, with the right data we could compare the average profit per vehicle of a Model X with other luxury crossovers like the Lincoln Aviator and Cadillac XT(whichever is the closest match). We might see a different story if we just look at the per-vehicle profit: vehicle transaction cost (not just MSRP) minus the manufacturing cost (materials + labor)

I think that makes for an accurate evaluation of, “Nobody else is developing and improving their processes to increase speed, efficiencies and margins when manufacturing a vehicle.” which is not the same as overall company financial performance. My thought is that we need to strip out the profit from regulatory credits (Tesla) and other services (like OnStar or Ford Credit revenue). I’m an IT guy so I could be totally off-base and I’m open to opinions from others with automotive industry experience.
 

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GM has built tanks and vehicles for the military. They worked on the lunar rover. They have experience and definitely have teams working on advanced materials. Ford, too. You think GM/Ford haven’t mastered metal stamping and casting? You don’t think EVERY auto manufacturer isn’t working to increase production speed, efficiency, and profit margins?

Insanity.
I have close friends in upper leadership at GM. They share that while GM has very smart and talented people, their culture is their worst enemy. Tesla will make running changes to say the Model Y within 4-6 months. Example, their heat pump/octa valve, new rear mega cast, now 1 piece replaced multitudes. GM & Ford are in so deep with unions their are handicapped or handcuffed from making major transformations. Once Tesla’s Austin plant is operating (their are already making Y castings with no walls on the factory) the main unibody will be 3 large castings replacing hundreds of pieces, hundreds of welds, glue, self tapping screws, etc. This will lead to a more perfect body to now attach panels and thus reduce gaps/fitment, etc. I have seen thus far no such rapid advancements from GM.
 

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SANZC02

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, the manufacturing process is leaps above every other car manufacturer out there.-----"The quality control issues with Tesla is extremely poor Reading the Tesla owners forum is an eye-opening experience that repeats itself on a regular basis.
you may need to do a little more research on this point. Tesla has yet to make a profit on it’s manufacturing processes. They are coming from selling energy credits that will dry up as more mainstream manufacturing companies start shifting to EVs.

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boneil1

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That’s still looking at company-wide performance. What I was trying to explain was that if you look at the average profit per vehicle per category for each manufacturer you’ll have a better indication of efficiency and profits when speaking of the manufacturing of vehicles. This is related to your earlier statement, “Nobody else is developing and improving their processes to increase speed, efficiencies and margins when manufacturing a vehicle.”

So, as an example, with the right data we could compare the average profit per vehicle of a Model X with other luxury crossovers like the Lincoln Aviator and Cadillac XT(whichever is the closest match). We might see a different story if we just look at the per-vehicle profit: vehicle transaction cost (not just MSRP) minus the manufacturing cost (materials + labor)

I think that makes for an accurate evaluation of, “Nobody else is developing and improving their processes to increase speed, efficiencies and margins when manufacturing a vehicle.” which is not the same as overall company financial performance. My thought is that we need to strip out the profit from regulatory credits (Tesla) and other services (like OnStar or Ford Credit revenue). I’m an IT guy so I could be totally off-base and I’m open to opinions from others with automotive industry experience.

Good point. I think the problem with individual vehicle comparisons is what do you compare to get an apples to apples comparison while also using vehicles that have been around several years. For example a Mach E compared to model Y????. But the Mach E hasn't been around long enough to give a chance for improvements. One would hope they make advancements with their heat pump. Sandy Munro is tearing one down now and there is no comparison between a Ford heat pump and a Tesla heat pump. Hopefully Rivian's heat pump is closer to Tesla than Ford.

Maybe it's not even fair of me to compare the manufacturing process of an ICE vehicle to an EV platform.
 

CommodoreAmiga

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I have close friends in upper leadership at GM. They share that while GM has very smart and talented people, their culture is their worst enemy. Tesla will make running changes to say the Model Y within 4-6 months. Example, their heat pump/octa valve, new rear mega cast, now 1 piece replaced multitudes. GM & Ford are in so deep with unions their are handicapped or handcuffed from making major transformations. Once Tesla’s Austin plant is operating (their are already making Y castings with no walls on the factory) the main unibody will be 3 large castings replacing hundreds of pieces, hundreds of welds, glue, self tapping screws, etc. This will lead to a more perfect body to now attach panels and thus reduce gaps/fitment, etc. I have seen thus far no such rapid advancements from GM.
GM doesn’t have wide-spread panel gap issues…. Tesla does.

GM makes a profit selling vehicles. Tesla doesn’t.

What you think is some major technological advancement is really just Tesla trying to meet the standards that other auto manufacturers have already mastered.
 

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GM doesn’t have wide-spread panel gap issues…. Tesla does.

GM makes a profit selling vehicles. Tesla doesn’t.

What you think is some major technological advancement is really just Tesla trying to meet the standards that other auto manufacturers have already mastered.
So GM has an equivalent to Model S Palid, that they make a profit on? Or any electric they make a profit on. Ford for example, if you take away the F series trucks they would be bankrupt. How many Billion is GM in debt in less than 10 years after filling Bankruptcy? $150B+.
? Ford is some $200B in debt. Please continue…
 

CommodoreAmiga

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So GM has an equivalent to Model S Palid, that they make a profit on? Or any electric they make a profit on. Ford for example, if you take away the F series trucks they would be bankrupt. How many Billion is GM in debt in less than 10 years after filling Bankruptcy? $150B+.
? Ford is some $200B in debt. Please continue…
I'm going to stop engaging with you, since you are employing many logical fallacies and bad-faith arguments.
 

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SeaGeo

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So GM has an equivalent to Model S Palid, that they make a profit on? Or any electric they make a profit on. Ford for example, if you take away the F series trucks they would be bankrupt. How many Billion is GM in debt in less than 10 years after filling Bankruptcy? $150B+.
? Ford is some $200B in debt. Please continue…
And if you take the model 3 away, Tesla would no longer exist. What's your point?
 

BigE

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And if you take the model 3 away, Tesla would no longer exist. What's your point?
I was responding to Coomadore…he took his bat & ball and went to his safe space.
 

SeaGeo

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I was responding to Coomadore…he took his bat & ball and went to his safe space.
I know. I'm pointing out one of the logical fallacies that he was tired of dealing with.
 

Billyk24

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I have close friends in upper leadership at GM. They share that while GM has very smart and talented people, their culture is their worst enemy. Tesla will make running changes to say the Model Y within 4-6 months. Example, their heat pump/octa valve, new rear mega cast, now 1 piece replaced multitudes. GM & Ford are in so deep with unions their are handicapped or handcuffed from making major transformations. Once Tesla’s Austin plant is operating (their are already making Y castings with no walls on the factory) the main unibody will be 3 large castings replacing hundreds of pieces, hundreds of welds, glue, self tapping screws, etc. This will lead to a more perfect body to now attach panels and thus reduce gaps/fitment, etc. I have seen thus far no such rapid advancements from GM.
Three main castings for the unibody also means(?) unrepairable for fender benders? Thus higher insurance costs? As for replacing hundreds of pieces-welds-glue-screws you can't produce the specific numbers, locations or part numbers.
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