Tesla Fans

[Gshenderson]

I hope that Rivian will have many positive announcements soon

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[ajdelange]

Clearly you are somewhat behind the times. At worst Tesla's cars were well made but they are much better now. The very post you quote points out that there is a loud minority of Tesla cult followers. So is there a loud minority of Tesla detractors to be found on the Tesla Owners site. It is so loud there that I stopped reading it.

I've had some things go wrong with Teslas and other than the almost comical bit where the app wouldn't accept my address so I had to send the ranger to a neighbor it has been pretty good. I live in the DC area where there are three Tesla facilities including a body shop. Even there (the stupidist thing I ever said in my entire life was "Dear, you do need to learn to drive the Tesla") the wait for parts was only a week or so and the service good. This is not to say that in the past at least some of the horror stories must have been true and not to say that Telsa isn't capable of improvement in the service area and not to say that their manufacturing is not capable of further improvement. Were it not it would be perfect and it isn't perfect.

 

[Billyk24]

Clearly you are somewhat behind the times. At worst Tesla's cars were well made but they are much better now. The very post you quote points out that there is a loud minority of Tesla cult followers. So is there a loud minority of Tesla detractors to be found on the Tesla Owners site. It is so loud there that I stopped reading it.

I've had some things go wrong with Teslas and other than the almost comical bit where the app wouldn't accept my address so I had to send the ranger to a neighbor it has been pretty good. I live in the DC area where there are three Tesla facilities including a body shop. Even there (the stupidist thing I ever said in my entire life was "Dear, you do need to learn to drive the Tesla") the wait for parts was only a week or so and the service good. This is not to say that in the past at least some of the horror stories must have been true and not to say that Telsa isn't capable of improvement in the service area and not to say that their manufacturing is not capable of further improvement. Were it not it would be perfect and it isn't perfect.

Clearly you are somewhat behind the times. At worst Tesla's cars were well made but they are much better now.-------Tesla still expects the owner to make an appointment with the service center after delivery? to fix the constant quality control issues the factory refuses to address. Some of us won't put up with this stuff especially when the local service center is 350 miles away.

 

[ajdelange]

Curious here: which model do you drive and what sort of problems have you had that Tesla has refused to fix?

And the relevant question for this forum "Do you think Rivian will be better and if so why?"

 

[boneil1]

Maybe I should have added some context to my Tesla manufacturing comments. No other car company has a SpaceX team developing alloys for their cars. No others have the ability or desire for giga castings. Nobody else is developing and improving their processes to increase speed, efficiencies and margins when manufacturing a vehicle.

And I think we all know that every car out there has issues. Tesla's quality issues are more publicized because they are a publicly traded company with big names shorting the stock and Tesla doesn't spend millions a year paying for advertising. Tesla does a recall on a few hundred cars and it's all over CNBC all day long. Ford recalls a million cars, and it doesn't get a mention. My new Ram had a leaking rear widow, the wifes 2 year old Ford has paint pealing, both, very common problems, but no one talks about it on TV or on social media. Tesla has a bumper fall off and its the end of the world on social media.

And we will see what happens when Rivian goes public. If they pay for advertising they will be okay. But if they don't and they have that crazy valuation of 70 billion, we will see first hand how bad they get treated in the media.

 

[ajdelange]

Elon Musk is a sort of Henry Reardon sort. Not likely to be much loved by the mainstream media. And he has made it very plain that his overall goal is to do things which will destroy a couple of the most powerful, wealthy and influential industries in the world. i hope he has good bodyguards. Besides that he is more than willing to extend his middle finger to labor unions, the SEC and short sellers whom he openly mocks. And in flouting all these things that society demands of him he has been extremely successful. At a turn of Wall Streets whim, he could be back to being the richest man in the world again. Little wonder he is a target from several sides.

Scaringe seems to be a different animal. When he becomes a multi billionaire that may all change. I hope he does. He deserves it.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

Maybe I should have added some context to my Tesla manufacturing comments. No other car company has a SpaceX team developing alloys for their cars. No others have the ability or desire for giga castings. Nobody else is developing and improving their processes to increase speed, efficiencies and margins when manufacturing a vehicle.

GM has built tanks and vehicles for the military. They worked on the lunar rover. They have experience and definitely have teams working on advanced materials. Ford, too. You think GM/Ford haven’t mastered metal stamping and casting? You don’t think EVERY auto manufacturer isn’t working to increase production speed, efficiency, and profit margins?

Insanity.

 

[EarlyAdptr]

Maybe I should have added some context to my Tesla manufacturing comments. No other car company has a SpaceX team developing alloys for their cars. No others have the ability or desire for giga castings. Nobody else is developing and improving their processes to increase speed, efficiencies and margins when manufacturing a vehicle.

@boneil1: no disrespect intended, but I have a very different impression of the non-tesla auto industry than you do. Don't get me wrong, Tesla has achieved some amazing things - against the giants of industry, but to suggest only Tesla is improving process for speed efficiencies and margins" is completely incorrect. In fact, I would suggest maybe the opposite, while Tesla may have a desire to reduce lead-time and lower costs - their methods are outdated. Take Toyota as an example. Any research into Toyota will reveal a company whos sole mission is to improve the customer's experience (lead time, quality, value) and do so in a systematic way that delivers results over decades. It's why their #1 in sales.

As it relates to SpaceX engineers designing alloys for vehicles. Is there something specific about "space engineers" versus say engineers of material science? I'm NOT a rocket scientist, but I struggle to think there's something special about "space engineers" that a larger company like Ford or VW doesn't already have as it relates to material science. Just watch Sandy M's recent video on the VW motor - he talks about holding the "director of fasteners engineering" role at Ford (or something like that) - they had a whole department just researching fastener technology!! You don't think those same companies have advanced scientists / engineers as it relates to selecting and manipulating metals and other materials? I don't know as I haven't worked for an auto company, but it would SHOCK me if they didn't have similar capabilities. Now, maybe they do have different "thinking" with a focus on space that might provide some advantage in the auto world - but that seems a bit of a stretch to me.

As to defects and Tesla while Tesla may get more press on some defects, the facts speak for themselves - they have very poor quality. Check out the Consumer Reports 2021 Quality Survey to see one organizations study of quality. Here's the ultimate ranking (according to average reliability score)

1. Mazda (83)
2. Toyota (74)
3. Lexus (71)
4. Buick (70)
5. Honda (63)
6. Hyundai (62)
7. Ram (58)
8. Subaru (57)
9. Porsche (55)
10. Dodge (54)
11. Infiniti (54)
12. BMW (52)
13. Nissan (51)
14. Audi (46)
15. Kia (45)
16. GMC (43)
17. Chevrolet (42)
18. Volvo (41)
19. Jeep (41)
20. Mercedes-Benz (40)
21. Cadillac (38)
22. Ford (38)
23. Mini (37)
24. Volkswagen (36)
25. Tesla (29)
26. Lincoln (8)

 

[boneil1]

GM has built tanks and vehicles for the military. They worked on the lunar rover. They have experience and definitely have teams working on advanced materials. Ford, too. You think GM/Ford haven’t mastered metal stamping and casting? You don’t think EVERY auto manufacturer isn’t working to increase production speed, efficiency, and profit margins?

Insanity.

They certainly haven't made any strides in efficiency and profit margins, as the earnings reports show. The only way GM, Ford and others increase margins is by raising prices, and moving manufacturing to countries with cheaper labor.

If you really want to know about the castings, look into Idra giga castings and what Tesla is doing. No one else has the ability to cast components like Tesla can. Because they don't have the engineering ability nor the desire, according to Sandy Munro, to change their ways. Sandy does a really good job explaining the advantages that Tesla has over car manufacturers, much better than I can.

 

[boneil1]

@boneil1: no disrespect intended, but I have a very different impression of the non-tesla auto industry than you do. Don't get me wrong, Tesla has achieved some amazing things - against the giants of industry, but to suggest only Tesla is improving process for speed efficiencies and margins" is completely incorrect. In fact, I would suggest maybe the opposite, while Tesla may have a desire to reduce lead-time and lower costs - their methods are outdated. Take Toyota as an example. Any research into Toyota will reveal a company whos sole mission is to improve the customer's experience (lead time, quality, value) and do so in a systematic way that delivers results over decades. It's why their #1 in sales.

As it relates to SpaceX engineers designing alloys for vehicles. Is there something specific about "space engineers" versus say engineers of material science? I'm NOT a rocket scientist, but I struggle to think there's something special about "space engineers" that a larger company like Ford or VW doesn't already have as it relates to material science. Just watch Sandy M's recent video on the VW motor - he talks about holding the "director of fasteners engineering" role at Ford (or something like that) - they had a whole department just researching fastener technology!! You don't think those same companies have advanced scientists / engineers as it relates to selecting and manipulating metals and other materials? I don't know as I haven't worked for an auto company, but it would SHOCK me if they didn't have similar capabilities. Now, maybe they do have different "thinking" with a focus on space that might provide some advantage in the auto world - but that seems a bit of a stretch to me.

About a year ago I would have agreed with you. But after my personal research, and watching several interviews with Sandy and others, I have come to my personal opinion on the subject. As far as SpaceX engineers, if it wasn't for them, we would still be using expendable rockets. Most rocket companies still do. I think it's either Sandy or Idra who explains really well the significance of the alloy SpaceX developed, and the role they play with Tesla. Blue Origin, has even recently started copying SpaceX's homework, switching materials. There's alot of material sciences involved with space and rocketry.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

I think it's time to expand my ignore list.

 

[boneil1]

I think it's time to expand my ignore list.

Can't handle it if someone thinks differently than you? Ashame. I love discussion, debate and differing opinions. Thats how people become more informed.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

Can't handle it if someone thinks differently than you? Ashame. I love discussion, debate and differing opinions. Thats how people become more informed.

I can handle differing opinions from open-minded people. But you're not one of those people.

I'd get a more meaningful debate with a concrete wall. And for that reason, I'm out.

 

[SoCal Rob]

They certainly haven't made any strides in efficiency and profit margins, as the earnings reports show. The only way GM, Ford and others increase margins is by raising prices, and moving manufacturing to countries with cheaper labor.

My understanding is that GM, Ford, and other established automotive manufacturers make the bulk of their earnings based primarily on selling vehicles, parts, and related services. Tesla makes a large chunk from regulatory credits because they are solely an EV manufacturer. So comparing earnings overall doesn’t strike me as a reasonable measure of efficiency and profit margins. It may be more useful to look at each manufacturer’s average profit per vehicle in a given category if you want to look at efficiency and profit margins related to the manufacturing of vehicles.

 

[boneil1]

By expanding one's ignore list would suggest differently, Commodore.

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