Stupid previous owner = $$$ L2 installation

[mkhuffman]

I have seen some discussion that Leviton revised their 14-50 plug in 2024 and made it more heavy duty, or at least made a different kind for EV charging. Looking at home depot this has replaced the type you can see in the picture I posted.

It also costs $50 vs the $15-20 for the typical big box special. I think conventional wisdom holds true, the cheap ones are cheap for a reason. That said if you want the exact same thing to compare without the Hubbell brand premium, look for the Bryant one. It's a Hubbell-owned brand but it's cheaper and seems to be exactly identical.

The one I have is made for EV charging, which I think is what you are referring to, but it was available prior to 2024. Home Depot still sells the cheap ones that should not be used for EV charging.

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[CrazyOne]

Almost the story of my house, except I have a 200a panel. But yea, my microwave, all main floor lights, and half the sockets in my living room and dining room, are all on one circuit.

I kept blowing the fuse when I had a 60inch plasma TV, and would start the microwave.

This is how the house was wired when built new in the 70's.

I still dont know how it passed.. But it did.

I ran a 8g wire to a jacuzzi by my garage years ago. When I got my R1, I sold the jacuzzi, and m yourepurposed the line to charge my R1 with a Rivian branded charger. It was bumpy at start, as I think I had the charger set to 48a and had a small electrical fire, when I should have been at 40a, or lower. Got that figured out the hard way, and now have my charger set at 32a, with no problems since.

I kind of know why, assuming it's a over three range microwave. My previous house was wired the same way, with TV, microwave and few other outlets on same breaker. It was supposed to be an exhaust hood, but someone renovated it to have a microwave.

 

[Zoidz]

Your advice is good, as definitely industrial outlets like the one made by Hubbell are more robust than the cheap 14-50 outlets sold at Home Depot. But discounting problems due to installation is a mistake. And discounting the risk of connections that loosen over time is also a mistake. A Hubbell with loose wires can overheat and melt, just like a cheap one can.

I purchased a Leviton 14-50 EV outlet from Home Depot to replace the cheap Home Depot one I installed before I knew better. It is built almost identically like the more expensive Hubbell outlet and it is very robust. It is not "junk", IMO. What evidence do you have that makes you think it is junk?

Here are a few pictures of the outlet I have yet to install. (I am not using the 14-50 outlet so I have not prioritized installing it over other house projects.)

You can plainly see it has very robust connections for the wires, and it is just as substantial at the Hubbell outlet. If you have some evidence it isn't, maybe you can share what you know. I can trash it and get a Hubbell if you are convincing, but evidence instead of opinion is what is needed.

The Hubbell is made out of polyester which has better overall thermal performance compared nylon. Depending on formulation (which explans variations in the data below) nylon can start to melt at 210 C, Polyester is 250 C. Since these devices are subject to repeated thermal cycling in an uncontrolled environment, and our #1 concern is overheating failures, it's a factor.

From the manufacturers specs:
Leviton Operating Temperature: -40°C to 60°C
Hubbell Operating Temperature: 75°C, minimum -40°C (w/o impact)
Leviton Contact Material: Copper
Hubbell Contact Material: Brass

If ambient temperature is 38 C (100 F) on a hot day, we start there and add heat from charging. That 15 C difference could matter after 6 hours of additional heat from charging.

Brass is more durable than copper and does not oxidize as readily as copper. When thinking about a plug contact, IMO durability and no oxidation (resistance which creates heat) is preferable.

I have held both the Leviton EV and the Hubbell 9450 in my hand and inspected them. Unless Leviton has changed the design recently, the brass mating connectors used inside the front of the Hubbell receptacle are visually much more robust compared to the Leviton. Leviton is made in China for the mass market at Lowe's, Home Cheapo, etc. Hubbell is made in the US for the industrial market. I've done controls and automation engineering projects in dozens of customer factories in my career. I've seen Leviton devices fail electrically in homes. I've never seen a Hubbell device fail electrically in a factory (where continuous duty is common), but I've seen burnt wiring connected to Hubbell devices.

Is my standard of expectation and performance high for electrical components? Yes, so to me lots of stuff is junk.

Will the Leviton work? Yes.

Will most people never have an issue with the Leviton? Probably.

Do I think saving $25 is worth the potential risk? No. Food for two people at Chik-fil-A costs more than $25.


"Melting Point and Thermal Stability
Nylon generally has a higher melting point than polyester, with common grades melting in the range of approximately 210–265 °C, depending on type (e.g., Nylon 6 vs Nylon 6,6). This higher melting point supports use in moderately elevated-temperature applications. However, nylon’s thermal performance is strongly affected by moisture. Absorbed water acts as a plasticizer, lowering stiffness and heat resistance under load, particularly near the glass transition region.
Polyester (PET) has a slightly lower melting point, typically around 250–260 °C, but offers more consistent thermal behavior in real environments. Because it absorbs very little moisture, its mechanical properties remain stable across temperature and humidity changes. For applications involving repeated thermal cycling or combined heat–humidity exposure, polyester often delivers more predictable performance."


"Nylon vs. Polyester: Physical Properties
Table 1 lists important properties of nylon and polyester:
Table 1: Properties Comparison of Nylon (PE6 as the example) vs polyester (PET as the example)

Property	Nylon 6 PA Value (metric)	Polyester PET Value (metric)
Optical transmission	Only when based on cycloaliphatic monomers	Excellent
Density	1.1-1.17 g/cm3	0.7-1.45 g/cm3
Hardness, Shore D	70-85	71-87
Tensile strength, ultimate	50-90 MPa	22-95 MPa
Tensile strength, yield	40-100 MPa	55-260 MPa
Elongation at break	5-120%	40-600%
Modulus of elasticity	1.3-4.2 GPa	1.57-5.2 GPa
Flexural yield strength	20-150 MPa	55-135 MPa
Flexural modulus	1.3-3.7 GPa	1.38-3.5 GPa
Dielectric constant	3.1-12	2.4-3.7
Melting point	190-238 °C	200-260 °C
Max service temperature	60-180 °C	60-225 °C

 

[mkhuffman]

The Hubbell is made out of polyester which has better overall thermal performance compared nylon. Depending on formulation (which explans variations in the data below) nylon can start to melt at 210 C, Polyester is 250 C. Since these devices are subject to repeated thermal cycling in an uncontrolled environment, and our #1 concern is overheating failures, it's a factor.

From the manufacturers specs:
Leviton Operating Temperature: -40°C to 60°C
Hubbell Operating Temperature: 75°C, minimum -40°C (w/o impact)
Leviton Contact Material: Copper
Hubbell Contact Material: Brass

If ambient temperature is 38 C (100 F) on a hot day, we start there and add heat from charging. That 15 C difference could matter after 6 hours of additional heat from charging.

Brass is more durable than copper and does not oxidize as readily as copper. When thinking about a plug contact, IMO durability and no oxidation (resistance which creates heat) is preferable.

I have held both the Leviton EV and the Hubbell 9450 in my hand and inspected them. Unless Leviton has changed the design recently, the brass mating connectors used inside the front of the Hubbell receptacle are visually much more robust compared to the Leviton. Leviton is made in China for the mass market at Lowe's, Home Cheapo, etc. Hubbell is made in the US for the industrial market. I've done controls and automation engineering projects in dozens of customer factories in my career. I've seen Leviton devices fail electrically in homes. I've never seen a Hubbell device fail electrically in a factory (where continuous duty is common), but I've seen burnt wiring connected to Hubbell devices.

Is my standard of expectation and performance high for electrical components? Yes, so to me lots of stuff is junk.

Will the Leviton work? Yes.

Will most people never have an issue with the Leviton? Probably.

Do I think saving $25 is worth the potential risk? No. Food for two people at Chik-fil-A costs more than $25.


"Melting Point and Thermal Stability
Nylon generally has a higher melting point than polyester, with common grades melting in the range of approximately 210–265 °C, depending on type (e.g., Nylon 6 vs Nylon 6,6). This higher melting point supports use in moderately elevated-temperature applications. However, nylon’s thermal performance is strongly affected by moisture. Absorbed water acts as a plasticizer, lowering stiffness and heat resistance under load, particularly near the glass transition region.
Polyester (PET) has a slightly lower melting point, typically around 250–260 °C, but offers more consistent thermal behavior in real environments. Because it absorbs very little moisture, its mechanical properties remain stable across temperature and humidity changes. For applications involving repeated thermal cycling or combined heat–humidity exposure, polyester often delivers more predictable performance."


"Nylon vs. Polyester: Physical Properties
Table 1 lists important properties of nylon and polyester:
Table 1: Properties Comparison of Nylon (PE6 as the example) vs polyester (PET as the example)

Property	Nylon 6 PA Value (metric)	Polyester PET Value (metric)
Optical transmission	Only when based on cycloaliphatic monomers	Excellent
Density	1.1-1.17 g/cm3	0.7-1.45 g/cm3
Hardness, Shore D	70-85	71-87
Tensile strength, ultimate	50-90 MPa	22-95 MPa
Tensile strength, yield	40-100 MPa	55-260 MPa
Elongation at break	5-120%	40-600%
Modulus of elasticity	1.3-4.2 GPa	1.57-5.2 GPa
Flexural yield strength	20-150 MPa	55-135 MPa
Flexural modulus	1.3-3.7 GPa	1.38-3.5 GPa
Dielectric constant	3.1-12	2.4-3.7
Melting point	190-238 °C	200-260 °C
Max service temperature	60-180 °C	60-225 °C

" Food for two people at Chik-fil-A costs more than $25. "

You had me at "hello".



Great post. I am going to trash the Leviton and get a Hubbell. Even though I never use that outlet, I want to do it right. You convinced me.

 

[Weck]

The Hubbell is made out of polyester which has better overall thermal performance compared nylon. Depending on formulation (which explans variations in the data below) nylon can start to melt at 210 C, Polyester is 250 C. Since these devices are subject to repeated thermal cycling in an uncontrolled environment, and our #1 concern is overheating failures, it's a factor.

From the manufacturers specs:
Leviton Operating Temperature: -40°C to 60°C
Hubbell Operating Temperature: 75°C, minimum -40°C (w/o impact)
Leviton Contact Material: Copper
Hubbell Contact Material: Brass

If ambient temperature is 38 C (100 F) on a hot day, we start there and add heat from charging. That 15 C difference could matter after 6 hours of additional heat from charging.

Brass is more durable than copper and does not oxidize as readily as copper. When thinking about a plug contact, IMO durability and no oxidation (resistance which creates heat) is preferable.

I have held both the Leviton EV and the Hubbell 9450 in my hand and inspected them. Unless Leviton has changed the design recently, the brass mating connectors used inside the front of the Hubbell receptacle are visually much more robust compared to the Leviton. Leviton is made in China for the mass market at Lowe's, Home Cheapo, etc. Hubbell is made in the US for the industrial market. I've done controls and automation engineering projects in dozens of customer factories in my career. I've seen Leviton devices fail electrically in homes. I've never seen a Hubbell device fail electrically in a factory (where continuous duty is common), but I've seen burnt wiring connected to Hubbell devices.

Is my standard of expectation and performance high for electrical components? Yes, so to me lots of stuff is junk.

Will the Leviton work? Yes.

Will most people never have an issue with the Leviton? Probably.

Do I think saving $25 is worth the potential risk? No. Food for two people at Chik-fil-A costs more than $25.
...

Are you 100% sure that Hubbell 14-50 is made in the US?

Reason I ask is I recently had dinner with two engineers that work there, and we had a conversation about their Chinese factories.

 

[justinkitswa]

You are greatly overgeneralizing the failure of NEMA plugs. The single biggest issue is using a $35 - $50 crap 14-50 from Amazon, Lowe's or Home Depot - even if it is branded Leviton and says "EV" rated on it. Junk. A Hubbell 9450 costs $75 - $100 for a reason and will outlast the EV.

Hubbell parts - I might see running those. Problem is getting them. Unless you require your installing electrician to spec those parts, what are the chances that's what they install? It's not common in residential electrical work to see basis of design and spec requirements for hardware, so there's a good chance the electrician is going to install whatever they picked up from the distribution warehouse.

There's far more junk out there now (even junk with a formerly good reputation like Leviton, Eaton, Crouse-Hinds) to me it's not worth the risk, considering that circuit/receptacle/plug will carry 80% rated load for hours on end. You're also placing faith in the Chinese plug that comes with these portable chargers.

Also, keep in mind that to use a receptacle connection per NEC 210.8 you also need a GFCI - so now you've got to add a 50 Amp GFCI breaker to the cost.

Amazon sells all kinds of off brand THHN wire now too, I'm just as nervous about the insulation rating on that cheap junk as the rest of the cheap parts we're seeing.

Hardwire connections do not resolve all risk with these, but eliminating one point of high resistance/failure is worth it from my perspective.

 

[Zoidz]

Hubbell parts - I might see running those. Problem is getting them. Unless you require your installing electrician to spec those parts, what are the chances that's what they install? It's not common in residential electrical work to see basis of design and spec requirements for hardware, so there's a good chance the electrician is going to install whatever they picked up from the distribution warehouse.

There's far more junk out there now (even junk with a formerly good reputation like Leviton, Eaton, Crouse-Hinds) to me it's not worth the risk, considering that circuit/receptacle/plug will carry 80% rated load for hours on end. You're also placing faith in the Chinese plug that comes with these portable chargers.

Also, keep in mind that to use a receptacle connection per NEC 210.8 you also need a GFCI - so now you've got to add a 50 Amp GFCI breaker to the cost.

Amazon sells all kinds of off brand THHN wire now too, I'm just as nervous about the insulation rating on that cheap junk as the rest of the cheap parts we're seeing.

Hardwire connections do not resolve all risk with these, but eliminating one point of high resistance/failure is worth it from my perspective.

I don't disagree that hard wired is the best solution. But for a variety of reasons, a plug may be the practical solution for a given installation and use case. A quck example - Not EV related, but industrial related. We recently had a customer who has a very stringent Lock Out/Tag Out safety protocol that dictates local disconnects but did not want to pay the price for four 480 volt NEMA 4X 200 amp motor disconnect switches at $15k each. They opted for NEMA 4X rated plug/socket assemblies instead - at a "bargain" cost of $5k each.

 

[HaveBlue]

We've been installing these for tenant units behind GFCI breakers. We are not going to supply or maintain EVSE's in a non shared situation. Tenants can supply their own. They've been in service from some years. Some units only have 50A panels hence 14-30s to keep things balanced.

 

[mkhuffman]

Hubbell parts - I might see running those. Problem is getting them. Unless you require your installing electrician to spec those parts, what are the chances that's what they install? It's not common in residential electrical work to see basis of design and spec requirements for hardware, so there's a good chance the electrician is going to install whatever they picked up from the distribution warehouse.

There's far more junk out there now (even junk with a formerly good reputation like Leviton, Eaton, Crouse-Hinds) to me it's not worth the risk, considering that circuit/receptacle/plug will carry 80% rated load for hours on end. You're also placing faith in the Chinese plug that comes with these portable chargers.

Also, keep in mind that to use a receptacle connection per NEC 210.8 you also need a GFCI - so now you've got to add a 50 Amp GFCI breaker to the cost.

Amazon sells all kinds of off brand THHN wire now too, I'm just as nervous about the insulation rating on that cheap junk as the rest of the cheap parts we're seeing.

Hardwire connections do not resolve all risk with these, but eliminating one point of high resistance/failure is worth it from my perspective.

Personally I would buy it myself and hand it to the electrician to install.

@Zoidz - dude, it is slightly more expensive than I thought:
HUBBELL 50 A 125/250V AC Black Receptacle - 5Z885|HBL9450A - Grainger

 

[NY_Rob]

^ you can find them on ebay- brand new for a lot less...

 

[mkhuffman]

^ you can find them on ebay- brand new for a lot less...

How do you know it's not counterfeit? That's one of the reasons I resist buying from sites like Amazon, as you never know if you're getting the real product. Same with eBay, unfortunately. I prefer to buy from a site who sources parts from reliable sources.

Counterfeit products are a big problem, IMO.

 

[Mos Eisley]

Just to interrupt the discussion on polyester whozeewhatsits for a moment, got my final estimate this morning.... wait for it... $9,000.

I may have had a hernia trying not to laugh in the face of the technician.

I accepted a proposal today and ordered an Emporia Classic.

 

[NY_Rob]

How do you know it's not counterfeit? That's one of the reasons I resist buying from sites like Amazon, as you never know if you're getting the real product. Same with eBay, unfortunately. I prefer to buy from a site who sources parts from reliable sources.

Counterfeit products are a big problem, IMO.

I usually take in to account the price, seller's feedback score, his longevity and number of sales. I've never been duped yet using those metrics.

 

[justinkitswa]

$9k sounds like a panel board upgrade to me, along with cleanup of the previous wiring mess.
Glad you're getting it all sorted.

 

[Mos Eisley]

$9k sounds like a panel board upgrade to me, along with cleanup of the previous wiring mess.
Glad you're getting it all sorted.

You'd think? Nope - it was an almost apple to apple quote of the others... running a dedicated line from my current panel. Labor was triple and the copper was more than double. He also required a load manager at a cost equal to the total cost of the lowest bid I received.

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