Newest language on the EV incentive

[Max]

Tesla has previously sold vehicles with larger packs that were software limited in useable capacity. You could buy the additional capacity after you purchased the car. The customer received what they paid for initially and had the option to pay more to get a larger pack (software unlock of cells they already had).

Tesla situation is not tied to incentives. The problem with your suggestion here is either customer have to agree in advance that they will buy the upgrade which turns the whole thing into a fraud case. Or Rivian take a chance in which case they will be losing money on every car whose owner decide not to upgrade. That could be all cars sold if a Russian hacker comes up with a pack liberty solution.

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[kommonplace]

Not to mention the fact that not all Rivian buyers will be rich. I'm not (I do ok). This will be my first "premium" vehicle. I would not purchase something more expensive, nor would I purchase an ICE vehicle at anywhere close to this price (within 20-30K of it). Rather than move to a nicer house or purchase other luxuries, we're opting for an electric vehicle that meets our needs. Of course, without the incentive we might delay our purchase. What we won't do is spend money on an ICE vehicle (contribute to the economy) or purchase an electric vehicle that won't meet our needs (we'll opt for an EV to replace our Prius eventually, but not for years - we want to replace our fuel hungry ICE SUV). I don't know that we need a 200K cap, but we need to promote the sale of those vehicles that replace fuel hungry counterparts.

I'm in the same boat, but my ICE vehicle will hit 200k miles within the next month or so. I'm already nervous that it won't last until the R1S comes out. Without the $7,500 incentive, we'd have to save up even longer... and I don't see that being possible. I'd have to settle for something else that doesn't fully suit my needs. (Looking for a third-row and unwilling to purchasing any non-BEV.)

I am definitely hoping the language in the bill gets changed, but we'll see. If not, it will take $7,500 off the cost of a Tesla and essentially add $7,500 to the cost of the Rivian. That's a $15k swing.

 

[DucRider]

The other issue to consider is that Rivian doesn’t have traditional “dealership”. I wonder if that language is inserted purposely for traditional dealerships.

In order to sell vehicles, Rivian stores will need a dealer license and will be "Dealers". Same as Tesla.

People seem to use the term "dealer" to mean "franchised dealer". In many areas, even a private party that sells more than 5 (or some other arbitrary number) of vehicles a year is required to get a dealers license.

 

[emoore]

I'm in the same boat, but my ICE vehicle will hit 200k miles within the next month or so. I'm already nervous that it won't last until the R1S comes out. Without the $7,500 incentive, we'd have to save up even longer... and I don't see that being possible. I'd have to settle for something else that doesn't fully suit my needs. (Looking for a third-row and unwilling to purchasing any non-BEV.)

I am definitely hoping the language in the bill gets changed, but we'll see. If not, it will take $7,500 off the cost of a Tesla and essentially add $7,500 to the cost of the Rivian. That's a $15k swing.

What ICE vehicle? I would think if it lasted this long it will last another 6 months or a year. There’s nothing magical about 200k miles.

 

[kommonplace]

What ICE vehicle? I would think if it lasted this long it will last another 6 months or a year. There’s nothing magical about 200k miles.

This is straying off-topic, but: 2014 Ford Flex. Nothing magical, no, but I add about 28k miles each year, so the longer my EV purchase drags out, the more likely I am to run into more serious issues. Right now, my issues are all electronic (liftgate, infotainment, audio system).

Hopefully things work themselves out with the EV incentives.

 

[DucRider]

I'm in the same boat, but my ICE vehicle will hit 200k miles within the next month or so. I'm already nervous that it won't last until the R1S comes out. Without the $7,500 incentive, we'd have to save up even longer... and I don't see that being possible. I'd have to settle for something else that doesn't fully suit my needs. (Looking for a third-row and unwilling to purchasing any non-BEV.)

I am definitely hoping the language in the bill gets changed, but we'll see. If not, it will take $7,500 off the cost of a Tesla and essentially add $7,500 to the cost of the Rivian. That's a $15k swing.

What Tesla are you comparing the the R1S? Certainly not the Model 3. And the Model Ys 3rd row is pretty much a joke (plus it may not qualify depending on how they classify it and how it is optioned). The Model S is too expensive as is the Model X (the closest thing Tesla offers to the R1S).

There is no 3 row BEV out there now - or on the horizon - that would qualify for the incentives as they are being proposed. The only glimmer might be the Fisker Ocean but that is likely a long way off (if it ever comes to market)

 

[Ladiver]

If this were to pass as is, I would have a hard time not buying a little sh*t box American built commuter. This brings the bolt down below $20k! I'm sure others are even cheaper.

At some point, the gov may even give away stuff from Government Motors! When that happens, color won't matter to me. But I will complain if they don't include free charging and pay for the installation of a charger at my home. Oh yeah, might as well include additional solar to cover the cost of charging.

Wonder if they would care that I have 2 Rivians???

 

[kommonplace]

What Tesla are you comparing the the R1S? Certainly not the Model 3. And the Model Ys 3rd row is pretty much a joke (plus it may not qualify depending on how they classify it and how it is optioned). The Model S is too expensive as is the Model X (the closest thing Tesla offers to the R1S).

There is no 3 row BEV out there now - or on the horizon - that would qualify for the incentives as they are being proposed. The only glimmer might be the Fisker Ocean but that is likely a long way off (if it ever comes to market)

No comparison, hence the " I'd have to settle for something else that doesn't fully suit my needs." I would get the Model Y, but it's nowhere near the ballpark of the R1S0-nothing is. Financially, though, I can't pass up getting a Tesla for $7,500 off when the Rivian gets no such benefit. Really, really hoping that isn't the case when the time comes!

 

[R_1_T]

It's clear that to the politicians, any EV rebate or tax credit is nothing more than a political bargaining chip. They could give a rat's @$$ about moving the EV industry forward in the US, or reducing vehicle emissions via EV adoption. We need a National Energy Policy that promotes the purchase of EVs at all levels, regardless of vehicle price or personal income.

This is so true. There's so much more going on behind the scenes - the back door deals, campaign contributions, etc. That being said, I don't think the government shouldn't be subsidizing anything. In a true marketplace of products and ideas, the best options as decided by the consumer would simply win.

Tax credit or not, the Rivians are expensive vehicles. Even if configured with the minimum level of equipment the R1T would easily be the most expensive vehicle purchase I've made.

 

[DaveA]

What Tesla are you comparing the the R1S? Certainly not the Model 3. And the Model Ys 3rd row is pretty much a joke (plus it may not qualify depending on how they classify it and how it is optioned). The Model S is too expensive as is the Model X (the closest thing Tesla offers to the R1S).

There is no 3 row BEV out there now - or on the horizon - that would qualify for the incentives as they are being proposed. The only glimmer might be the Fisker Ocean but that is likely a long way off (if it ever comes to market)

Production version of the Ocean is coming in November this year. November 17, 2022 is start of manufacture with Magna. Already an 18 month waiting list based on current reservations.

 

[Zeroemit]

I'm in the same boat, but my ICE vehicle will hit 200k miles within the next month or so. I'm already nervous that it won't last until the R1S comes out. Without the $7,500 incentive, we'd have to save up even longer... and I don't see that being possible. I'd have to settle for something else that doesn't fully suit my needs. (Looking for a third-row and unwilling to purchasing any non-BEV.)

I am definitely hoping the language in the bill gets changed, but we'll see. If not, it will take $7,500 off the cost of a Tesla and essentially add $7,500 to the cost of the Rivian. That's a $15k swing.

I too, am looking for 3 row BEV, however, under $69k might be akin to looking for a unicorn. Hybrids will be at that price.

What Tesla are you comparing the the R1S? Certainly not the Model 3. And the Model Ys 3rd row is pretty much a joke (plus it may not qualify depending on how they classify it and how it is optioned). The Model S is too expensive as is the Model X (the closest thing Tesla offers to the R1S).

There is no 3 row BEV out there now - or on the horizon - that would qualify for the incentives as they are being proposed. The only glimmer might be the Fisker Ocean but that is likely a long way off (if it ever comes to market)

Iam assuming the Volvo XC90 replacement which will be a BEV, wil have 3 rows like it's ICE/ hybrid predecessor. It probably debut next yr 2022, but unlikely be under $69k.

 

[Zoidz]

That being said, I don't think the government shouldn't be subsidizing anything. In a true marketplace of products and ideas, the best options as decided by the consumer would simply win.

I get ya, and in general I agree. I make an exception if there's an urgent, fundamental, and strategic reason to force a major shift in production and consumption habits - such as environmental concerns. That's why I mentioned that the US needs a national energy policy - if the US is serious qbout addressing climate change and EVs are part of that strategy, I believe that rebates/credits make sense to accelerate the effort.

Germany has chosen to go this route:
"The ecological rebate aims to promote the replacement of the country’s motor vehicles with climate- and environmentally-friendly electric vehicles, according to the published 15-page paper."

https://www.electrive.com/2020/06/04/germany-doubles-ev-subsidies-no-more-diesel-support/

 

[R_1_T]

I get ya, and in general I agree. I make an exception if there's an urgent, fundamental, and strategic reason to force a major shift in production and consumption habits - such as environmental concerns. That's why I mentioned that the US needs a national energy policy - if the US is serious qbout addressing climate change and EVs are part of that strategy, I believe that rebates/credits make sense to accelerate the effort.

Germany has chosen to go this route:
"The ecological rebate aims to promote the replacement of the country’s motor vehicles with climate- and environmentally-friendly electric vehicles, according to the published 15-page paper."

https://www.electrive.com/2020/06/04/germany-doubles-ev-subsidies-no-more-diesel-support/

I guess that I question how environmentally friendly EVs actually are. This question goes well beyond the zero tailpipe emission factor, and really needs to consider the entire supply chain.

From a strategic perspective, I actually view lithium based batteries as a negative due to the location of the primary sources for the key elements, which aren't exactly in "friendly" countries. There's still a crapload of petrochemical products that are involved in vehicle manufacturing/components - not to mention the chemicals involved in semiconductor manufacturing.

In the event lithium was widely available within the US/Canada, would any of us want the mine in our "backyard"? My guess is about as much as an oil refinery or semiconductor fab.

 

[Ventura]

I guess that I question how environmentally friendly EVs actually are. This question goes well beyond the zero tailpipe emission factor, and really needs to consider the entire supply chain.

From a strategic perspective, I actually view lithium based batteries as a negative due to the location of the primary sources for the key elements, which aren't exactly in "friendly" countries. There's still a crapload of petrochemical products that are involved in vehicle manufacturing/components - not to mention the chemicals involved in semiconductor manufacturing.

In the event lithium was widely available within the US/Canada, would any of us want the mine in our "backyard"? My guess is about as much as an oil refinery or semiconductor fab.

Do I want lithium mining in my back yard? Yes, but it depends on how it is done.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/green...ithium-from-the-salton-sea-to-make-batteries/

 

[thrill]

I guess that I question how environmentally friendly EVs actually are...

Everyone's going to have different parts of environmental impact that they think should be considered important.

Here's some handwaving math on the Rivians and CO2:

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