Dual Motor EPA Certification Application (Reveals HP, Efficiency, Range, MPGe Figures)

[usofrob]

Isn't the Quad Large pack in Conserve Mode rated for 347 miles? So, 352 miles for the Dual Large Pack in All Purpose (/Conserve) is only a 1% increase.

I would be the rest of the modes that are full time AWD will also be very similar. I can hardly wait for people to get their vehicles to test/compare.

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[Throwdown]

It's battery limited. Should be the same.

Regen should be less in the dual because

I haven't ever tried Conserve mode, so at the moment, no clue. I'll try to remember to give it a go in the near future and report back.

I rarely use conserve, only when i am road tripping, but when I do I feel less regen which makes sense cuz only one axle should be active. It would be nice to confirm whether it re-engages the rear axle on regen in conserve but it sure doesnt seem like it to me. We have big hills here and my regen gets limited every day on my way to work.

 

[gregdman]

So, 7700 lbs? If so, does it mean I can pull a trailer that has 7,500 lbs gross trailer weight? I've never pulled any trailer, so I need help understanding how this works.

" The 80/20 towing rule is a safety measure many RVers follow. Basically, the rule states that you shouldn't tow above 80% of your max towing capacity. This gives room for human error in calculations. It also protects the life of your vehicle by not pushing it to the max every time you tow your trailer."

 

[jjswan33]

Isn't the Quad Large pack in Conserve Mode rated for 347 miles? So, 352 miles for the Dual Large Pack in All Purpose (/Conserve) is only a 1% increase.

Quad Large in like for like metric is 328 miles. We don’t know what Conserve mode is ’rated’ for for either the quad or dual motor, we do have anecdotal reports of people getting 347 in conserve but that isn’t comparable to EPA ratings.

 

[izgoy]

" The 80/20 towing rule is a safety measure many RVers follow. Basically, the rule states that you shouldn't tow above 80% of your max towing capacity. This gives room for human error in calculations. It also protects the life of your vehicle by not pushing it to the max every time you tow your trailer."

So, does it mean that to tow 7500 lbs I need an R1T rather than an R1S?

 

[usofrob]

Quad Large in like for like metric is 328 miles. We don’t know what Conserve mode is ’rated’ for for either the quad or dual motor, we do have anecdotal reports of people getting 347 in conserve but that isn’t comparable to EPA ratings.

That might not be the final number, but the interesting thing is that they did test it and have results here, page 28 and 30:
https://dis.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=57452&flag=1

They've been adjusted higher by Rivian for some reason to have nearly exactly the same measured value as the Dual Motor 348 miles, but Rivian made only a small adjustment for the Dual to 352. So, it seems like the EPA test says the Dual is 16 miles better than Quad Conserve, but Rivian thinks it's only about 5 miles better based on their provided adjustment. Maybe they are playing it safe and expect to be able to increase the range later based on more real world usage.

 

[shrink]

That might not be the final number, but the interesting thing is that they did test it and have results here, page 28 and 30:
https://dis.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=57452&flag=1

They've been adjusted higher by Rivian for some reason to have nearly exactly the same measured value as the Dual Motor 348 miles, but Rivian made only a small adjustment for the Dual to 352. So, it seems like the EPA test says the Dual is 16 miles better than Quad Conserve, but Rivian thinks it's only about 5 miles better based on their provided adjustment. Maybe they are playing it safe and expect to be able to increase the range later based on more real world usage.

I have not previously seen that document for the 2023 testing. Nice find!

Can you clarify something about your statement above? Pages 28 and 30 of the document you referenced refers to the R1T on 21's. The document linked in the first post here only seems to include R1S test results.

From that I can gather, it looks like:

R1S Quad Large 21" Conserve = 332.04 mile adjusted range

R1S Dual Large 21" All Purpose = 352.06 miles adjusted range

The official EPA rated range on an R1S Quad large is 321 miles, since I don't think a Quad Motor is meant to be driven in conserve all that time.

So, if I'm reading this right, the R1S Dual Motor is adding about 20-30 miles of range, or 9% when comparing official EPA ratings.

BTW - I'm not entirely sure how the adjustment works, but I know 0.7 is standard and Rivian's adjustment doesn't seem all that different.

Here's some info if you're curious:

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/testing-national-vehicle-and-fuel-emissions-laboratory

 

[AbhorViolence]

I expect the battery to be the limiting factor for straight line performance, but with individual motor torque vectoring it should mean a significant bump in responsiveness in corners and loose off-road, and I hope that's what is being planned.

In other words, the truck that I ordered a couple years ago. Before they gimped it repeatedly before canceling it entirely and pushing me onto Dual Max. Why not give us the option of waiting for the actual Quad Max, like I ordered? They basically reneged on their promise to deliver what we ordered to us early Max reservation holders, never mind at the price we reserved at, they cancelled it for us entirely. Only to be apparently building basically the same thing but counting it as a different product so we don't get it. Frustrating. If I had my choice I'd rather wait an extra year if it means getting the actual Quad Max that I originally ordered.

And I'm a very long RIVN stock holder and very much want them to succeed. End rant. (Edit: I'm talking about R1T)

 

[Dark-Fx]

In other words, the truck that I ordered a couple years ago. Before they gimped it repeatedly before canceling it entirely and pushing me onto Dual Max. Why not give us the option of waiting for the actual Quad Max, like I ordered? They basically reneged on their promise to deliver what we ordered to us early Max reservation holders, never mind at the price we reserved at, they cancelled it for us entirely. Only to be apparently building basically the same thing but counting it as a different product so we don't get it. Frustrating. If I had my choice I'd rather wait an extra year if it means getting the actual Quad Max that I originally ordered.

And I'm a very long RIVN stock holder and very much want them to succeed. End rant. (Edit: I'm talking about R1T)

Not the truck you ordered unfortunately. Just the one you thought you ordered. Back when I ordered it was advertised "up to 750 hp", so I actually got a better vehicle than advertised with slightly less range. Which has been totally adequate.

 

[Yossarian]

In other words, the truck that I ordered a couple years ago. Before they gimped it repeatedly before canceling it entirely and pushing me onto Dual Max. Why not give us the option of waiting for the actual Quad Max, like I ordered? They basically reneged on their promise to deliver what we ordered to us early Max reservation holders, never mind at the price we reserved at, they cancelled it for us entirely. Only to be apparently building basically the same thing but counting it as a different product so we don't get it. Frustrating. If I had my choice I'd rather wait an extra year if it means getting the actual Quad Max that I originally ordered.

And I'm a very long RIVN stock holder and very much want them to succeed. End rant. (Edit: I'm talking about R1T)

Like you, I was a quad R1T Max pre-order, only to be notified in Dec by Rivian that they were shelving the plans for that configuration. Rivian actually never said never! to the quad Max and even hinted that someday it may possibly be available:
"Quad-Motor + Max pack will not be selectable in the configurator beginning in early 2023. We plan to add a Quad-Motor with additional capability at a later date that will pair with the Max pack. We will release pricing for this new variant closer to launch."

So while Rivian kinda, sorta, said that maybe someday if the stars align they'd build the quad Max, my cynical suspicion is that they really have no intention to ever build it. My only evidence that the configuration has been killed off for good is pretty slim however: I think Rivian would have given us the choice to wait for the quad/Max configuration if there truly were plans to eventually build it.

To their credit, Rivian did offer some incentive to switch to the dual/Max in the forms of a slight discount and possible early delivery of the new model:
"For price committed customers who preordered before 3/1/2022, choosing standard Dual-Motor AWD will lower your current price by $4,500 while the enhanced version will lower it by $2,000. Deliveries are planned to start at the end of summer in limited volumes and will ramp through the end of the year. We will prioritize Max pack preorder holders for our earliest Dual-Motor deliveries where it’s possible."

While I am disappointed that Rivian decided to shelve the quad R1T Max, I'm not upset with the company because of the decision. What I am upset about is their communication on the subject. It's pretty clear that the decision to cancel was made much earlier than December. At the very least, I think Rivian should have let us know that they were considering such a move well before they actually got around to doing so.

 

[kayabusa]

I can't wait for my R1S dual motors with large pack, 21's wheels and 400 miles of range !!!

 

[battleborn]

Like you, I was a quad R1T Max pre-order, only to be notified in Dec by Rivian that they were shelving the plans for that configuration. Rivian actually never said never! to the quad Max and even hinted that someday it may possibly be available:
"Quad-Motor + Max pack will not be selectable in the configurator beginning in early 2023. We plan to add a Quad-Motor with additional capability at a later date that will pair with the Max pack. We will release pricing for this new variant closer to launch."

So while Rivian kinda, sorta, said that maybe someday if the stars align they'd build the quad Max, my cynical suspicion is that they really have no intention to ever build it. My only evidence that the configuration has been killed off for good is pretty slim however: I think Rivian would have given us the choice to wait for the quad/Max configuration if there truly were plans to eventually build it.

To their credit, Rivian did offer some incentive to switch to the dual/Max in the forms of a slight discount and possible early delivery of the new model:
"For price committed customers who preordered before 3/1/2022, choosing standard Dual-Motor AWD will lower your current price by $4,500 while the enhanced version will lower it by $2,000. Deliveries are planned to start at the end of summer in limited volumes and will ramp through the end of the year. We will prioritize Max pack preorder holders for our earliest Dual-Motor deliveries where it’s possible."

While I am disappointed that Rivian decided to shelve the quad R1T Max, I'm not upset with the company because of the decision. What I am upset about is their communication on the subject. It's pretty clear that the decision to cancel was made much earlier than December. At the very least, I think Rivian should have let us know that they were considering such a move well before they actually got around to doing so.

As an early Quad/Max reservation holder I was told by my guide I can wait for the Quad/Max even though the configuration is not currently available any longer- and Rivian will honor original pricing. I'm pretty confident Rivian will honor this (unless of course they go broke beforehand). I imagine that there are relatively few reservation holders now left in this camp.

 

[Dark-Fx]

As an early Quad/Max reservation holder I was told by my guide I can wait for the Quad/Max even though the configuration is not currently available any longer- and Rivian will honor original pricing. I'm pretty confident Rivian will honor this (unless of course they go broke beforehand). I imagine that there are relatively few reservation holders now left in this camp.

There's zero percent chance of that happening. My guide said I could get the original pricing on the camp kitchen.

 

[usofrob]

I have not previously seen that document for the 2023 testing. Nice find!

Can you clarify something about your statement above? Pages 28 and 30 of the document you referenced refers to the R1T on 21's. The document linked in the first post here only seems to include R1S test results.

From that I can gather, it looks like:

R1S Quad Large 21" Conserve = 332.04 mile adjusted range

R1S Dual Large 21" All Purpose = 352.06 miles adjusted range

The official EPA rated range on an R1S Quad large is 321 miles, since I don't think a Quad Motor is meant to be driven in conserve all that time.

So, if I'm reading this right, the R1S Dual Motor is adding about 20-30 miles of range, or 9% when comparing official EPA ratings.

BTW - I'm not entirely sure how the adjustment works, but I know 0.7 is standard and Rivian's adjustment doesn't seem all that different.

Here's some info if you're curious:

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/testing-national-vehicle-and-fuel-emissions-laboratory

All very interesting points. My concern is about the peak capability when driving long distances. for my personal use cases, I'm rarely concerned about the efficiency differences around town. I am worried about the tires wearing evenly. If the dual motors use the front wheels by default only, and then switch only if they detect slip, then I'd strongly suspect you're going to see more tire wear in the front tires. But, they could reduce that a lot by enabling AWD when going slowly, or when needing more than XX power output/input. It's actually possible that you'd get more efficient by enabling both motors at 50% than one motor at 100% and the other disconnected.

Does anyone know how the Enduro motors are going to do the disconnect? Presumably it's different from the disconnect in the Quad, or they'd implement it in the Quad too.


Back to the comparison between Dual All-Purpose(Automatic AWD) vs Quad Conserve (Manual AWD):
If you look purely at the tested range with the standard .7 factor, then the Quad R1S is 332, the Quad R1T is 330 and 336 (not sure why it's in there twice), so about the same. Compare that to the tested Dual R1S with 348, then the difference is about 16 miles.

I still don't have any insight into why Rivian decided to adjust the range only for the R1T to be about 348 in Conserve and not do anything for the R1S in that test. So, assuming that the performance of the R1T and R1S are statistically similar, then the Rivian adjusted difference is about 4 miles.

But Rivian advertises the R1T as having a longer range than the R1S. So, maybe it's closer to 16 miles than 4 miles in their testing. {shrug}

I admit I'm a little biased towards not liking the Dual because I'm still disappointed that they removed Sport mode from the base and other off road modes from all dual motor variants.

 

[AbhorViolence]

Not the truck you ordered unfortunately. Just the one you thought you ordered. Back when I ordered it was advertised "up to 750 hp", so I actually got a better vehicle than advertised with slightly less range. Which has been totally adequate.

Fair enough. I see a small HP number difference as much less of a "different truck" vs them fully removing 2 of the 4 motors they promised for Max Pack (which used to be also called "180kwh", but seems will now be smaller).

I wouldn't mind a small change in HP number, I want one motor at each wheel for torque vectoring etc.

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