Bi-Directional Charging

[SANZC02]

We are planning to putting in as part of an integrated solar solution on a new build. We are putting in 18 kw of solar, and 27kwh of power walls. This is fine for all day-to-day power needs but in an extended outage due to hurricane, having the Rivian as an extended backup eliminates the need for a Generac. It creates a bigger buffer with solar as a refill. We were down for 10 days during Ike and three days during the winter outage. The alternative is to add an additional powerwall or a generator.

That sounds like a good setup.

I have solar and a powerwall, if I could add the Rivian to the mix I could literally go months off grid.

As a side note, when RJ was talking to Electrek sounds like the R1 only has hardware for DC out from the charge port, I need to better understand what that means. The R2 seems like it is capable of AC out of that charge port.

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[MacO512]

We are planning to putting in as part of an integrated solar solution on a new build. We are putting in 18 kw of solar, and 27kwh of power walls. This is fine for all day-to-day power needs but in an extended outage due to hurricane, having the Rivian as an extended backup eliminates the need for a Generac. It creates a bigger buffer with solar as a refill. We were down for 10 days during Ike and three days during the winter outage. The alternative is to add an additional powerwall or a generator.

I'm all for using the Rivian as a backup in this example. I just don't understand the preference of spending 5-10k extra to have that be through the CCS port instead of a generator inlet.

 

[Herb]

I am wondering how a solar PV system would be safely integrated into a V2H setup. Most PV systems (that are not connected to a power wall or similar) shutdown during a power outage and come back on automatically when power returns. PV has to shed the power it produces into the system and increases the voltage to do so. The PV system would not know if it is connected to the grid or to vehicle power.
Practical example on a sunny day: EV is charged near full SOC, PV system generates kW, power goes out =>PV powers down => V2H kicks in (whether by auto transfer switch or manual connection) =>PV powers up. Even if the charger can fully automatically negotiate between V2H and H2V, the EV battery will eventually be charged to 100% SOC. Where is the PV power supposed to go? The PV system needs to shed the power it produces and will continue to raise its voltage I guess until PV inverter or the bi-directional charger fault out on overvoltage?
Interested in an expert explanation....

 

[SparkyR1t]

That sounds like a good setup.

I have solar and a powerwall, if I could add the Rivian to the mix I could literally go months off grid.

As a side note, when RJ was talking to Electrek sounds like the R1 only has hardware for DC out from the charge port, I need to better understand what that means. The R2 seems like it is capable of AC out of that charge port.

This ties back to the need for an agreed upon powering standard. Currently vehicles I have worked with only output high current DC from the traction battery. You change that to AC with an inverter that is part of the home system. Personally I doubt we will see the inverter with a high current output for powering a home as part of the vehicle. Very costly and the unit is physically large and generates a fair amount of heat

 

[CO-Ed]

I am wondering how a solar PV system would be safely integrated into a V2H setup. Most PV systems (that are not connected to a power wall or similar) shutdown during a power outage and come back on automatically when power returns.

I think what you are referencing are Solar PV systems that shutdown in an outage to not feed power back into the utility grid, to protect workers and not energize any equipment the utility thinks is offline. Also, most older PV systems can't form their own grid - a microgrid - so need the utility grid to synchronize with.

Here's how I look at integrating V2H and Solar PV: to power your home in an outage, either requires equipment with the capability to disconnect your home from the utility grid and form a microgrid, along with the equipment to get the DC power from your vehicle battery or solar panels to your home's electrical panel. If you install both a V2H and a Solar PV system, you'll end up installing the capability to synchronize these two sources of power - the vehicle and the solar panels. How many pieces of equipment you eventually end up installing depends on your system provider(s). Maybe best if you think of this just like a Solar PV System with batteries, but in this case the "battery" is both the vehicle and the bi-directional charger.

For my setup, I have the Solar PV system currently installed and am going to add, eventually, the V2H setup.

My Solar PV System is the Enphase Solar PV System with "Sunlight Backup" which includes the Enphase IQ8 microinverters and an Enphase System Controller (providing the disconnect switch capability). This Enphase Sunlight Backup, without a battery, can recognize a grid outage, disconnect from the grid, and, if there's any sunlight, "form a grid" to power the house. How much of the house that gets powered depends on how much sunlight there is. When the grid returns, the Controller synchronizes back with the utility grid to leave "island" mode.

I'm waiting for both the Rivian OTA update to support V2H and for Enphase to release their Bi-Directional Charger. In theory, that's all I need to achieve a "safely integrated" V2H and Solar PV System since I already have the disconnect and microgrid capabilities with my Solar PV System. However, in practice I'm expecting to have to replace or update some equipment, specifically my System Controller, so it can interface with both power sources (the joys of early adoption). This eventual setup should suffice for backup power during an outage and enable other protocols, like green-charging or to compensate during On-Peak TOU periods.

My actual experience with the Enphase Sunlight Backup has been great. I've had a few instances where the grid went down during the day, and I didn't realize it until much later when I looked at my Enphase app and saw an indication that the grid was down. In those cases, the system only produced as much power as the house demanded at the time. And that illustrates one benefit of Bi-Directional Charging. If the Rivian was plugged in during the outage, the PV System would have been able to generate beyond the house's demand and up to the full potential of the panels at the time and dump that excess power into the truck. My Rivian in turn could have provided that power back to the house if the outage extended past sundown or the house demand exceeded the capability of the panels during the day.

You can get a good explanation of Enphase's plans here (from Feb2023 - I realize this link was already provided in this thread):
Enphase Bidirectional EV Charger | Enphase

and/or Watch this video which demonstrates Enphase's Bi-Direction Charger (from 2023)


Hope that helped.

 

[Herb]

I think what you are referencing are Solar PV systems that shutdown in an outage to not feed power back into the utility grid, to protect workers and not energize any equipment the utility thinks is offline. Also, most older PV systems can't form their own grid - a microgrid - so need the utility grid to synchronize with.

Here's how I look at integrating V2H and Solar PV: to power your home in an outage, either requires equipment with the capability to disconnect your home from the utility grid and form a microgrid, along with the equipment to get the DC power from your vehicle battery or solar panels to your home's electrical panel. If you install both a V2H and a Solar PV system, you'll end up installing the capability to synchronize these two sources of power - the vehicle and the solar panels. How many pieces of equipment you eventually end up installing depends on your system provider(s). Maybe best if you think of this just like a Solar PV System with batteries, but in this case the "battery" is both the vehicle and the bi-directional charger.

For my setup, I have the Solar PV system currently installed and am going to add, eventually, the V2H setup.

My Solar PV System is the Enphase Solar PV System with "Sunlight Backup" which includes the Enphase IQ8 microinverters and an Enphase System Controller (providing the disconnect switch capability). This Enphase Sunlight Backup, without a battery, can recognize a grid outage, disconnect from the grid, and, if there's any sunlight, "form a grid" to power the house. How much of the house that gets powered depends on how much sunlight there is. When the grid returns, the Controller synchronizes back with the utility grid to leave "island" mode.

I'm waiting for both the Rivian OTA update to support V2H and for Enphase to release their Bi-Directional Charger. In theory, that's all I need to achieve a "safely integrated" V2H and Solar PV System since I already have the disconnect and microgrid capabilities with my Solar PV System. However, in practice I'm expecting to have to replace or update some equipment, specifically my System Controller, so it can interface with both power sources (the joys of early adoption). This eventual setup should suffice for backup power during an outage and enable other protocols, like green-charging or to compensate during On-Peak TOU periods.

My actual experience with the Enphase Sunlight Backup has been great. I've had a few instances where the grid went down during the day, and I didn't realize it until much later when I looked at my Enphase app and saw an indication that the grid was down. In those cases, the system only produced as much power as the house demanded at the time. And that illustrates one benefit of Bi-Directional Charging. If the Rivian was plugged in during the outage, the PV System would have been able to generate beyond the house's demand and up to the full potential of the panels at the time and dump that excess power into the truck. My Rivian in turn could have provided that power back to the house if the outage extended past sundown or the house demand exceeded the capability of the panels during the day.

You can get a good explanation of Enphase's plans here (from Feb2023 - I realize this link was already provided in this thread):
Enphase Bidirectional EV Charger | Enphase

and/or Watch this video which demonstrates Enphase's Bi-Direction Charger (from 2023)


Hope that helped.

Thanks for the detailed answer. I have an older Solaredge system and will investigate possible upgrades once (if) Rivian enables bi-directional charging.

 

[VSG]

once (if) Rivian enables bi-directional charging.

You mean once bi-directional charges become available - that's the holdup here, not Rivian.

 

[jjswan33]

Interlock kit with a generator plug for a $100 or so can do the same from any F150 lightning type of vehicles that has 240v output. But its also more redundant and flexible since a generator could be swapped out for that now dead vehicle. You'd have more power backup options.

Your $100 estimate is a stretch. Best case scenario you spend $300-500 (with a self install) on a transfer switch and are able to energize a few circuits, maybe cost me $500 total for a similar system (that I can use with my truck 110V out)

If you want any real power, Ala 80A from a Ford type system you need a grid disconnect on your breaker box. For most this requires an electrician.

For the Ford system it looks like the charger is $1300, this isn't an unreasonable cost in my opinion compared to $650 or whatever for a Rivian type charger. How much more is it going to cost to install than a standard charger, maybe $500-1500 depending on how far you need to run wire.

 

[Chris TX]

I'm all for using the Rivian as a backup in this example. I just don't understand the preference of spending 5-10k extra to have that be through the CCS port instead of a generator inlet.

DC vs AC. The Rivian doesn't have an onboard invertor that will power more than the 120V outlets. In order to harness the large battery's power for a home, it has to be converted to AC. Since there is no large onboard invertor, you'd need one externally from the vehicle that can handle the 400VDC from the battery. The only way to access that externally (without unsafe modifications) is through the CCS terminals.

Of course, if your load can be supplied by the 120V outlets in the vehicle, that's all you need.

 

[Herb]

You mean once bi-directional charges become available - that's the holdup here, not Rivian.

Not sure I understand, are you saying that R1 is enabled for bi-directional as is?

 

[Gen(R3)Xer]

From what I understand, Rivian has given us a promissory note that the hardware will support bidirectional charging and that the software will be changed and boxes will be available once a National standard is agreed upon. So I do not believe the software currently supports Quasar or any other bidirectional charging. Is there any progress regarding the National standard? Let’s hope Rivian does not pull a tank turn on this issue.

Rivians can’t actually do a tank turn, so it shouldn’t be a problem.

 

[VSG]

Not sure I understand, are you saying that R1 is enabled for bi-directional as is?

The Rivian hardware is in place for CCS V2H. It is not enabled in firmware, yet, because there are NO available bi-directional chargers that support CCS V2H. Rivian is currently working with several companies like Enphase to make sure that when these bi-directional chargers are released, they will work with Rivians.

So what I am saying is that until bi-directional chargers are available, you can't do V2H with any vehicle. Rivian is not making bi-directional chargers.

At some point in the future, WHEN bi-directional chargers become available, and WHEN you get one properly installed in your home, IF Rivian can't use it at that point THEN you could say that we're waiting on Rivian. But until then, all sorts of companies have been promising bi-directional chargers for years and no one has yet delivered one. THAT is the current hold-up.

 

[HyperionMark]

The Rivian hardware is in place for CCS V2H. It is not enabled in firmware, yet, because there are NO available bi-directional chargers that support CCS V2H. Rivian is currently working with several companies like Enphase to make sure that when these bi-directional chargers are released, they will work with Rivians.

So what I am saying is that until bi-directional chargers are available, you can't do V2H with any vehicle. Rivian is not making bi-directional chargers.

At some point in the future, WHEN bi-directional chargers become available, and WHEN you get one properly installed in your home, IF Rivian can't use it at that point THEN you could say that we're waiting on Rivian. But until then, all sorts of companies have been promising bi-directional chargers for years and no one has yet delivered one. THAT is the current hold-up.

Curious why you don't consider Ford's setup V2H, other than price.

Also, what about V2L? Is there any reason they couldn't do a 240V plug directly from the J1772?

 

[SANZC02]

Curious why you don't consider Ford's setup V2H, other than price.

Also, what about V2L? Is there any reason they couldn't do a 240V plug directly from the J1772?

I think they are planning that for the R2 based on an interview I saw of RJ.

He said the R2 will have an AC inverter that can put AC out the charge port but that the R1 only can output DC and requires an external inverter.

 

[CO-Ed]

Curious why you don't consider Ford's setup V2H, other than price.

Not sure about VSG, but I consider what Ford released to be V2H. I did see that some people were reporting issues with it though. Does anyone know if the bugs were worked out and Ford's V2H is operational?

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