80A L2 charging

[jjwolf120]

Show me the data backing your claim.

Show me the data backing up your claim.

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[DucRider]

If that's the case, why even have a 400 mile battery?

And that's not what I asked. If given the choice, would most Rivian customers want their car able to charge in 16 hours or 8? That is my question.

Not many people bought the camp kitchen according to the forum, but they still made it.

Annual mileage does have any correlation to charge time preference.

Your premise requires nearly completely draining the battery every day and having only 8 hours to charge in between,
If you drive 200 miles one day, 8 hours on a 48A EVSE would replenish that.
Your premise that a significant percentage of owners would do more than that a significant amount of the time is the argument that needs some data to back it up.

Annual average mileage shows that very few owners would put that kind of daily mileage on a vehicle on a regular basis (your justification for needing 80A charging).

 

[timesinks]

If that's the case, why even have a 400 mile battery?

To reduce the odds someone comes home empty and needs to leave only 8 hours later at a full charge? Though, in reality, most people don't need a 400-mile battery either (unless they're towing).

After 8 hours of home charging, you'll have at least 200 miles. That's at least 3 hours of driving before needing a DCFC stop the next day. This doesn't seem limiting to me in the slightest.

Percentage of pack over night is kind of a silly metric. If the vehicle had an 800-mile range option, would you still be insisting that it be charged overnight? At a rate of 100 miles per hour? That would be about 50kW -- most peoples' entire electrical services aren't even that big.

 

[Hopper]

To reduce the odds someone comes home empty and needs to leave only 8 hours later at a full charge? Though, in reality, most people don't need a 400-mile battery either (unless they're towing).

After 8 hours of home charging, you'll have at least 200 miles. That's at least 3 hours of driving before needing a DCFC stop the next day. This doesn't seem limiting to me in the slightest.

Percentage of pack over night is kind of a silly metric. If the vehicle had an 800-mile range option, would you still be insisting that it be charged overnight? At a rate of 100 miles per hour? That would be about 50kW -- most peoples' entire electrical services aren't even that big.

One of my regular routes is a 180 mile drive (each way) from my home in the Catskill Mountains of NY to the Philadelphia suburbs and back in a day. There are few chargers along my route (all require leaving the PA Turnpike) and very few if any L3. I’m struggling with how to make a 300 mile battery pack work for this real world use case without sitting somewhere for hours. :-(

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

If that's the case, why even have a 400 mile battery?

For people like me.

I don't need 400 miles of range every day. On a typical day I won't use even 100 miles of range. But I do take trips, occasionally, and that 400 mile range is for those times.

So I want to be able to leave my house with full 400 mile range -- which I can easily charge up to since I'm likely not charging from empty, each night.... Even if I did arrive home empty, I can trust that I'll build up more charge than I consume, on average.

And then when I'm on my trip I would DCFC and can recharge to 400 miles, if I choose.

The empty-to-full problem that some people complain about isn't an at-home problem. It's an on-the-road problem, and you solve that with DCFC.

 

[Trandall]

Apparently the more correct name is "load bank".
Quick google result for load bank

You're brave to google the term "Load Bank", I was to afraid to click the link on a work computer... I had a COMPLETELY different idea of what results may have popped up.

 

[Dark-Fx]

That's 3 hours of driving. Do yourself a favor and stop to stretch your legs for 20-30 minutes at a DCFC. Problem solved!

Furthest I ever drove without any stops was a bit over 500 miles in my Cruze.

It does on all EV's and PHEV. At 100% there is no room left for adding regenerative charge.

The Bolt will still do around 18-20kW regen when the car stops at 100% charge if the battery temps are good. 100% is not 100% SoC, and even if it were, the battery specs allow overcharging by a slight amount if it's only done for a brief period. It will eventually stop accepting any regen if you were fully charged and went down a mountain. I don't know what that voltage is as I've never had the opportunity to do this. In a Tesla, 100% is 100%. They do that so they can maximize their EPA range. It's not great for the battery, and I don't think other automakers are willing to do it.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Your premise requires nearly completely draining the battery every day and having only 8 hours to charge in between,
If you drive 200 miles one day, 8 hours on a 48A EVSE would replenish that.
Your premise that a significant percentage of owners would do more than that a significant amount of the time is the argument that needs some data to back it up.

Annual average mileage shows that very few owners would put that kind of daily mileage on a vehicle on a regular basis (your justification for needing 80A charging).

Your premise ignores bad weather and that people might use their vehicle to tow a trailer every day, and that batteries do degrade somewhat over the life of the vehicle. I had the 95% recall limit over this last winter, this was the worst number I saw at a full charge when we had extended time below zero. A far cry from the promised 238 EPA range.

 

[Electric Tiger]

Am I mistaken in thinking that the faster you charge the battery the quicker you degrade the battery?

Do you really think the Ford will pull the max charge all night?

I personally don’t think battery technology is to the point that an EV can replace a ICE truck that pulls a trailer everyday. If you really pull a trailer everyday, you own a diesel truck.

An EV is not going to be the best vehicle for all use cases right now. One day, sure. But not yet.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Am I mistaken in thinking that the faster you charge the battery the quicker you degrade the battery?

Do you really think the Ford will pull the max charge all night?

I personally don’t think battery technology is to the point that an EV can replace a ICE truck that pulls a trailer everyday. If you really pull a trailer everyday, you own a diesel truck.

An EV is not going to be the best vehicle for all use cases right now. One day, sure. But not yet.

Unless temperatures are at extreme levels, anything slower than 3 hours for a full charge won't have an appreciable change in battery degradation. The 7.2kWh charger in my wife's 2019 Volt will full charge from empty in under two and a half hours.

Lots of companies use gas trucks for local transit. A 400 mile truck should be able to get 150 miles of range in all but the absolute worst case scenario. Batteries are at a point where they can replace fossil fuel usage for a significant portion of use cases. If a company has an edge case where it won't, they'll still have an alternative vehicle available for that edge case.

It's amazing that in the same thread people are arguing that you'll never deplete the battery enough to worry about not being able to full charge overnight, others are arguing that batteries aren't there yet for people who need to drive a lot.

 

[DucRider]

Your premise ignores bad weather and that people might use their vehicle to tow a trailer every day, and that batteries do degrade somewhat over the life of the vehicle. I had the 95% recall limit over this last winter, this was the worst number I saw at a full charge when we had extended time below zero. A far cry from the promised 238 EPA range.

I never said that some people would not need to charge that much that quickly.
Only that it is a small percentage a small amount of the time.
The use case for someone towing a trailer in cold weather for hundreds of miles and returning home only having 8 hours to recharge before doing it again is a small percentage of potential owners.
The vast majority of owners will easily recharge their daily usage in a couple of hours on a 48A. EVSE.

One of my regular routes is a 180 mile drive (each way) from my home in the Catskill Mountains of NY to the Philadelphia suburbs and back in a day. There are few chargers along my route (all require leaving the PA Turnpike) and very few if any L3. I’m struggling with how to make a 300 mile battery pack work for this real world use case without sitting somewhere for hours. :-(

But do you do that on back-to-back days on a regular basis with only 8 hours at home between trips?

 

[Dark-Fx]

The vast majority of owners will easily recharge their daily usage in a couple of hours on a 48A. EVSE.

That's a huge assumption on your part. People who are getting the higher capacity battery out of necessity are more likely to use it. In the summer time I could do my commute all week on a 12A 120V charge at home. In the winter time if I need to run a lot of errands, I can deplete the battery and need to stop for a charge in the same day. I try to avoid that need but that also means that if I had a larger capacity battery I wouldn't need to. Work errands aren't always predictable.

48A charging means it doesn't matter that the battery has more capacity, I'm still going to need to stop to charge somewhere out of my way if that happens multiple days in a row. Are there people that would likely never have to worry about this? Probably, yeah. So give me an option to buy a dual onboard charger, not everyone needs to have it. I really don't want to tack another 30 minutes onto my day because I started off with 60% of a full charge. I'd rather pay a few extra thousand dollars to avoid that ever happening.

 

[Autolycus]

That's a huge assumption on your part. People who are getting the higher capacity battery out of necessity are more likely to use it. In the summer time I could do my commute all week on a 12A 120V charge at home. In the winter time if I need to run a lot of errands, I can deplete the battery and need to stop for a charge in the same day. I try to avoid that need but that also means that if I had a larger capacity battery I wouldn't need to. Work errands aren't always predictable.

48A charging means it doesn't matter that the battery has more capacity, I'm still going to need to stop to charge somewhere out of my way if that happens multiple days in a row. Are there people that would likely never have to worry about this? Probably, yeah. So give me an option to buy a dual onboard charger, not everyone needs to have it. I really don't want to tack another 30 minutes onto my day because I started off with 60% of a full charge. I'd rather pay a few extra thousand dollars to avoid that ever happening.

They wouldn't sell enough dual chargers to justify the engineering R&D that would be required to set up the electronics and the usage of space to accommodate that option.

You keep asking others to prove that there isn't a need for something, but you are the one advocating for a feature based on your own anecdata. The reality is that very few people tow for 200 miles on back-to-back days such that they would fully deplete a 135kwh battery, let alone a 180kwh one. Those few who do will simply have to rely on DCFC. Honestly, those people have a really hard time justifying any EV right now. EV battery chemistry isn't good enough for those fringe customers yet.

Also, the extra battery capacity DOES help, even if it cannot be charged fully in 8 hours. Compare what happens with a 400 mile battery vs a 300 mile one even when you can't fully charge each night:

1) EV doesn't get driven as much over the weekend, so it can get up to 100% charge by Monday morning. Monday AM range is 400:300.
2) Drive 250 miles on Monday. Monday PM range is 150:50. Charge overnight for ~8 hours, adding 200 miles. Tues AM range is 350:250.
3) Drive 200 miles on Tues. Tues PM range is 150:50. Charge overnight for ~8 hours, adding 200 miles. Wed. AM range is 350:250.
4) Drive 300 miles on Wed. Wed PM range is 50:WHOOPS 50 miles ago. Charge overnight for ~8 hours, adding 200 miles: Thurs AM range is 250:200 (let's say you charged at a DCFC during the day on Wed. just enough to get you back home at 0!!).
5) Drive 200 miles on Thurs. Thurs. PM range is 50:0. Charge overnight for ~8 hours, adding 200 miles. Fri. AM range is 250:200.
6) Drive 250 miles on Friday. Fri. PM range is 0:WHOOPS. Recharge back to 100% over the weekend, restart the week.

That extra range can absolutely make a difference even if the battery cannot be charged fully overnight.

 

[Dark-Fx]

They wouldn't sell enough dual chargers to justify the engineering R&D that would be required to set up the electronics and the usage of space to accommodate that option.

You keep asking others to prove that there isn't a need for something, but you are the one advocating for a feature based on your own anecdata. The reality is that very few people tow for 200 miles on back-to-back days such that they would fully deplete a 135kwh battery,

Again ignoring that bad weather reduces range significantly, even without considering towing. If it doesn't make sense, why are Rivian's competitors doing it?

 

[n8dgr8]

Teslas on the market aren't able to pull an 11,000 lbs trailer. And they certainly don't have a pack that wouldn't get a full charge overnight on a 48A charger. Rivian has stated that it reduces range by about half. I'm assuming that is under ideal weather conditions. Pulling that same trailer through heavy snow will probably further reduce the range by another half.

I can't really say if I'll ever need it for sure, but I'd rather be given the option to pay for something I don't end up needing versus finding out I need it and can't get it. I don't currently have a vehicle that can tow 11,000 lbs but that fact also stops me from being able to get a trailer that could meet or exceed that.

If that's the case, why even have a 400 mile battery?

And that's not what I asked. If given the choice, would most Rivian customers want their car able to charge in 16 hours or 8? That is my question.

Not many people bought the camp kitchen according to the forum, but they still made it.

Annual mileage does have any correlation to charge time preference.

I got the 400 mile pack so on random weekends I can drive 150 miles to a campsite stay 2 days and drive home without worrying about my charge. I have all week to get the range back up. The only time I might want more amps at home is when I boost the pack from 90% to 100% right before I leave early in the morning.

My Tesla has 200 miles of range. We use the whole thing on Saturday’s. Go mountain biking in the morning. Pick up the family. Go hiking in the afternoon. Shower and go out for dinner. We plug in as much as possible, but still get low. 400 miles means Saturdays are now care free. I have the whole week to get charged back up.

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