80A L2 charging

[Autolycus]

Again ignoring that bad weather reduces range significantly, even without considering towing. If it doesn't make sense, why are Rivian's competitors doing it?

Again ignoring the fact that most people with trucks don't drive in bad weather or tow every day. You've been given the stats. The average driver does 260 miles PER WEEK. That average includes road trips they take, so the "typical" week is even shorter. The average American commutes 16 miles each way for work. That's 32 miles/day. "Super commuters" account for <5% of all commuters in the US.

Rivian isn't targeting traditional "work truck" situations. That's not their market. They're targeting a specific demographic of wealthier people (they're selling $70k+ luxury vehicles, after all). That demographic is mostly white collar professionals who also like to get outdoors. There's a 2nd market they might have which is professional guides and adventure/outdoor-oriented businesses. The % of the primary market that needs 80a dual chargers AND could even add that electrical capacity to their home is extremely small.

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[MountainBikeDude]

Fortunately for me, my driving at worst during a week can be 150ish miles 2 days a week, Monday and Friday. The rest of the week is between 30-40 miles a day. I personally opted for the 400 mile pack for two reasons.

1. The peace of mind, especially off roading that the extra range will provide me, and even then, it will likely be overkill. But it sure won't kill my buzz!

2. I plan on having the R1T for 10 years minimum. While the warranty is epic in my mind, I know over time the battery WILL degrade, and having that 400 mile pack even at 75% cap. still leaves me with 300 miles of range

It's cool that ford is putting out the higher capacity 80 amp charger for those concerned with charging over night but driving full range each day. I don't really understand the "dual charger" aspect of it however. Is the wall mounted charger the only thing needed to achieve 80amp Level 2 charging, if that's the case, then it would work for a Rivian plugged into the same system no? or is it something that the truck has to have the ability to accept?

But one thing I found interesting is most people I know working in the construction industry that are looking at the Lightning, are blown away by the 200 mile range in a good way. Now what I suspect, is they are not versed in the many things that can hamper a vehicles range (Gas or Electric) due to towing, weather etc. and are blindly assuming that is an "across the board" usage scenario range available to them. Then in the end, only the hardcore "range braggers" really seem to care about anything beyond 2-300 miles, the general public seems more than happy with anything in that range.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Again ignoring the fact that most people with trucks don't drive in bad weather

I drive in bad weather pretty often, it's required to commute to work in the winter time here. Based on the amount of traffic I see on the roads on those days, I have to believe a lot of other people also have to do this. Not everyone lives somewhere it snows but are you really insisting that a truck with 4wd is not usually the preferred option for bad weather?

I am not in the "work truck" demographic you seem to be inferring.

 

[Dark-Fx]

It's cool that ford is putting out the higher capacity 80 amp charger for those concerned with charging over night but driving full range each day. I don't really understand the "dual charger" aspect of it however. Is the wall mounted charger the only thing needed to achieve 80amp Level 2 charging, if that's the case, then it would work for a Rivian plugged into the same system no? or is it something that the truck has to have the ability to accept?

Dual chargers simply means there are two units on the vehicle that share the charging load. It all still goes through a single cable/plug. It's easier to design a 40/48A unit and just put two of them in the vehicle than to design a single 80A unit. Anyone insisting that the engineering involved in having an additional unit in the vehicle to enable charging at the limit L2 allows would make it an expensive endeavor is overestimating the amount of work that would be required. The biggest issue is having space to mount the second unit. Other than that it's simply having wiring that's rated for the higher amperage, fusing, and contactors.

Hell, if GM had offered the option for me on the Bolt I would have taken it. It would have come in handy more than once. I wasn't interested in the Volt until they put in the option for a charger that was double the size.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

Dual chargers simply means there are two units on the vehicle that share the charging load. It all still goes through a single cable/plug. It's easier to design a 40/48A unit and just put two of them in the vehicle than to design a single 80A unit. Anyone insisting that the engineering involved in having an additional unit in the vehicle to enable charging at the limit L2 allows would make it an expensive endeavor is overestimating the amount of work that would be required. The biggest issue is having space to mount the second unit. Other than that it's simply having wiring that's rated for the higher amperage, fusing, and contactors.

Hell, if GM had offered the option for me on the Bolt I would have taken it. It would have come in handy more than once. I wasn't interested in the Volt until they put in the option for a charger that was double the size.

Thanks for the info ?

 

[Autolycus]

I drive in bad weather pretty often, it's required to commute to work in the winter time here. Based on the amount of traffic I see on the roads on those days, I have to believe a lot of other people also have to do this. Not everyone lives somewhere it snows but are you really insisting that a truck with 4wd is not usually the preferred option for bad weather?

I am not in the "work truck" demographic you seem to be inferring.

You're still not saying anything that disputes the fact that a very small % of people have any use for an 80A charger. You still also haven't disputed the fact that most houses simply cannot support an 80A charger. The NEC would require 100A service to the outlet. Many houses still only have 100A service for the entire house! Most new homes are being built with 150 or 200A service, but that's a relatively recent trend.

 

[SANZC02]

That's a huge assumption on your part. People who are getting the higher capacity battery out of necessity are more likely to use it. In the summer time I could do my commute all week on a 12A 120V charge at home. In the winter time if I need to run a lot of errands, I can deplete the battery and need to stop for a charge in the same day. I try to avoid that need but that also means that if I had a larger capacity battery I wouldn't need to. Work errands aren't always predictable.

48A charging means it doesn't matter that the battery has more capacity, I'm still going to need to stop to charge somewhere out of my way if that happens multiple days in a row. Are there people that would likely never have to worry about this? Probably, yeah. So give me an option to buy a dual onboard charger, not everyone needs to have it. I really don't want to tack another 30 minutes onto my day because I started off with 60% of a full charge. I'd rather pay a few extra thousand dollars to avoid that ever happening.

There is already a solution for this use case. You can simply install a small DCFC charger (25Kwh/75Kwh) at your house. They have single and 3 phase versions, might cost 15K or more but the ability to do it is there if it is absolutely needed.

 

[DucRider]

Just another refrain of "I want (insert your pet feature here) so therefore many other owners will also need it and Rivian should put it in all their vehicles".

This can be flat towing, longer bed, shorter overall length, fold up seats for the dogs, AA/CarPlay, removable roof, metal roof, sun shade, electrochromic roof, 37" tire option, powered tailgate, mix and match interior, more range, cheaper version, etc, etc, etc.

Rivian made choices along the way with their target market in mind. Balancing cost vs utility vs % of customers that want/need a feature/option was part of the process.

 

[Trandall]

I've read through several debates concerning range capacity, charging. One thought that has ocurred to me is that BEV adoption would benefit from a shift in perspective away from "what compromises might I have to accept in regards to range" to "what compromises am I accepting with an ICE in regards to cost to operate, excessive maintenance (time and cost), poor performance etc..."
Once we weigh the benefits and drawbacks of BEV's against ICE I believe it reduces the need to try to compensate with range and charging that fits 100% of use cases 100% of the time, that strategy is what leads to BEV cost being substantially higher than ICE.
Imagine the cost to produce an ICE car with the performance, operational cost and low maintenance of a BEV. Now compare those prices... Suddenly the R1T/S are a bargain.
@Dark-Fx Rivian may not be able to charge 0-100% in 6 hours but it won't need spark plugs, engine air filters, and (this list can go on for a good bit) Ok Ford Lightning has a faster home charger but, a fully loaded 300 mile version is also $15K more than a LE R1T.
The point is Rivian tried to find the sweet spot of everything and to be honest if I were in RJ's shoes with a blank notepad I wouldn't have done nearly as well.

 

[SANZC02]

Just another refrain of "I want (insert your pet feature here) so therefore many other owners will also need it and Rivian should put it in all their vehicles".

This can be flat towing, longer bed, shorter overall length, fold up seats for the dogs, AA/CarPlay, removable roof, metal roof, sun shade, electrochromic roof, 37" tire option, powered tailgate, mix and match interior, more range, cheaper version, etc, etc, etc.

Rivian made choices along the way with their target market in mind. Balancing cost vs utility vs % of customers that want/need a feature/option was part of the process.

Don't tell anyone but when they finalized the R1S specs I'm pretty sure they were peering over my shoulder reading my decision matrix ....

 

[Dark-Fx]

You're still not saying anything that disputes the fact that a very small % of people have any use for an 80A charger. You still also haven't disputed the fact that most houses simply cannot support an 80A charger. The NEC would require 100A service to the outlet. Many houses still only have 100A service for the entire house! Most new homes are being built with 150 or 200A service, but that's a relatively recent trend.

There is not currently an EV on the market with as large of a battery as the Max Pack Rivian R1T. Not anywhere close. The R1T is also less efficient than every other EV on the market. It'll be more important to have faster charging than you are suggesting.

 

[Autolycus]

There is not currently an EV on the market with as large of a battery as the Max Pack Rivian R1T. Not anywhere close. The R1T is also less efficient than every other EV on the market. It'll be more important to have faster charging than you are suggesting.

Not for the vast majority of their customers at home. For trips and even long day adventures, fast charging will be essential. That will come from DCFC, not from an AC charger intended for home use. An extremely small % of Rivian customers will ever return home with 0% charge and need to charge to 100% overnight. Most people will be able to charge for at least 8-10 hours overnight, with many able to charge for 12. That's 200-300 miles of range overnight with the planned L2 charger on 48A adding ~25 miles of range for each hour of charging. Even if you assume a 50% range hit from extreme cold--which is not the case for all EVs right now--that's still 100-150 miles overnight. Again, the average commuter in the US is doing <40.

Nobody is arguing that there aren't people who drive long distances or tow in bad weather. We're just saying that only a small % of the market is doing that frequently, and those people are still much better off without an EV.

 

[azbill]

There is already a solution for this use case. You can simply install a small DCFC charger (25Kwh/75Kwh) at your house. They have single and 3 phase versions, might cost 15K or more but the ability to do it is there if it is absolutely needed.

There are 4 DFDCs 8 miles from my house and another 4 of them 15 miles from my house, no need for any investment. If I run my car down low and need to use it some more, then I simply go to one of those and fill up enough to get where I need to go.

If I lived in a rural area with absolutely no DFDCs available, then I might consider that type of investment.

 

[TessP100D]

Personally, I don't like charging to 100% (full) since it significantly reduces regen braking (at least in my Model 3)

Only for the first 10 minutes or so. The it’s kicks back in.
you should only charge to 100% whe you go on a long trip. 100 miles or more As an example.

 

[SANZC02]

There are 4 DFDCs 8 miles from my house and another 4 of them 15 miles from my house, no need for any investment. If I run my car down low and need to use it some more, then I simply go to one of those and fill up enough to get where I need to go.

If I lived in a rural area with absolutely no DFDCs available, then I might consider that type of investment.

I'm right there with you. I'm good with an L2 charger, matter of fact, I currently only use a NEMA50 plug and portable charger. Waiting to see the specs on the Rivian charger before I get an L2 installed. I can't imagine a scenario in my use cases where getting 20-25 miles an hour at home would not work for me. If I find I am short for a trip, 2 miles down the road is a Super Charger, I'll just hit that and grab a cup of coffee before heading out.

There have been comments about the TOU rate plans (required in CA now if you get solar) but the high rates are either 4-9 PM or 5-8 PM so working around that should not be an issue.

My comment was really just geared towards the hand full of people that are so far outside the "normal" charge behavior. If they really need rapid charging at home, there are already solutions available.

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