Sponsored

Do I really need the Max Pack?

Status
Not open for further replies.

TessP100D

Banned
Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Threads
0
Messages
587
Reaction score
429
Location
So cal
Vehicles
Tesla 2017 P100D MS
Range is less and less relevant the higher the average range of an EV is and the more the fast charging infrastructure grows. I had one day last year that I absolutely needed to stop for charging in my Bolt. The amount of stops we made coincided with when we actually needed to stop anyway. No extra time was spent just waiting for a charge. It was a hair over 400 miles almost all highway driving. Still would have had to stop for a charge in a "400 mile" R1T, would have still made all of the stops we did and would have gained nothing by having more range.

The upcoming issue I foresee is the lack of charging infrastructure that has pull-through spots for towing. Complicated by the fact that manufacturers can't agree on the positioning of the vehicle's charge ports. The fact that this is going to be an issue is making me shy away from committing to trying to use an EV with a trailer for longer trips, thus negating the need for the higher capacity to counter the loss of efficiency anyway.
Range is King and will remain that way for a long time.

eventually maybe 10 years from now, when gas stations on every corner are replaced with EV charging stations , and charging rates increase dramatically then Range won’t matter as much. Until then, range is the only thing that really matters.
Sponsored

 
  • Like
Reactions: Don

skyote

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Threads
55
Messages
2,725
Reaction score
5,647
Location
Austin, TX
Vehicles
Jeeps, 2500HD Duramax, R1S Preorder (Dec 2018)
The upcoming issue I foresee is the lack of charging infrastructure that has pull-through spots for towing. Complicated by the fact that manufacturers can't agree on the positioning of the vehicle's charge ports. The fact that this is going to be an issue is making me shy away from committing to trying to use an EV with a trailer for longer trips, thus negating the need for the higher capacity to counter the loss of efficiency anyway.
I've come to the same conclusion. If long range towing is a key part of your usage, then ICE is a far better option until the next leap in battery tech.

That's why I don't plan to replace my HD diesel any time soon, but am going EV for my daily driver.
 

skyote

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Threads
55
Messages
2,725
Reaction score
5,647
Location
Austin, TX
Vehicles
Jeeps, 2500HD Duramax, R1S Preorder (Dec 2018)
Wait... @TessP100D , do you think range is king? I wasn't sure.

You're wrong about the "long time" thing though. EV awareness & sales are gaining steam, and CCS fast charging infrastructure will be prolific before you realize it.
 

TessP100D

Banned
Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Threads
0
Messages
587
Reaction score
429
Location
So cal
Vehicles
Tesla 2017 P100D MS
We
Wait... @TessP100D , do you think range is king? I wasn't sure.

You're wrong about the "long time" thing though. EV awareness & sales are gaining steam, and CCS fast charging infrastructure will be prolific before you realize it.
will see. Let’s all hope that it gets better. But public ev charging has a long way to go. Installing them is one thing and not bit small thing. But maintaining them is something else. As it stands now only Tesla has a reliable system. Hopfuly that will change.

for those Of you who don’t own an EV now (Tesla), the reality will hit you hard

range is King.
 

Gshenderson

Well-Known Member
First Name
Greg
Joined
Sep 28, 2019
Threads
13
Messages
1,229
Reaction score
2,768
Location
Park City, UT / Kemmerer, WY
Vehicles
2015 Tesla S 85D, 2019 4Runner TRD Offroad, R1T
Range is King and will remain that way for a long time.

eventually maybe 10 years from now, when gas stations on every corner are replaced with EV charging stations , and charging rates increase dramatically then Range won’t matter as much. Until then, range is the only thing that really matters.
Can you just put a footnote every time you post this saying others disagree so I don’t have to do it every time? ?
 

Sponsored

Dark-Fx

Well-Known Member
First Name
Brian
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Threads
96
Messages
9,367
Reaction score
17,765
Location
Michigan
Vehicles
Polestar 2, R1T, R1S, Livewire One, Fisker Ocean
Occupation
Engineering
Clubs
 
You're wrong about the "long time" thing though. EV awareness & sales are gaining steam, and CCS fast charging infrastructure will be prolific before you realize it.
When Rivian first announced, there were essentially no CCS fast charging station in my State. The ones that existed were either the ultra slow ones at Chevy dealers that are 25kW max. I would have gladly taken the 400 mile max pack then as it would have meant actually being able to travel with an EV. We did take a trip across the state in the middle of winter back then, and needed to use a station at a chevy dealer mid way. Stopped for lunch both ways while charging up at the station. Ended up working out just fine, and that trip is what changed my opinion. EV's will be viable for travel once the fast charging infrastructure exists. I want to stop occasionally anyway.

Today I look at plugshare and I see DCFC stations popping up in several different areas in Michigan. Northern Michigan has quite a few now, and some are under construction in the UP. Once those are online, I'd be able to get all the way up to the tip of the UP in a single day. Without any of them in the UP, even with the 400 mile R1T it's not a viable trip. With them, I can do it in my Bolt. Tesla's rollout of the supercharger network was a huge advantage for them back then, but even today there still isn't a station active yet in the UP. Had there been TSC stations up there in 2018 when I bought my Bolt, I might have gone for the 3 instead.
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Threads
9
Messages
2,883
Reaction score
2,317
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla XLR+2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, R1T
Occupation
EE Retired
I assure you I do, and I also assure you neither is what I’m talking about in this case.
I used to interview engineering candidates. I often asked questions about statistics. I can assure you that if you made some of the statements you made in earlier posts (e.g. high confidence from a single measurement) you would not have gotten a job with any company I ever worked for.

As of now, the data supports my argument, and until disproven with contradicting data it remains true. If we want to compare the size of our data, mine is infinitely larger than yours, which is zero, just conjecture and anecdotal.
The data does not support your argument.

I’m not trying to prove an absolute truth with perfect scientific method and statistical analysis, I’m just debating your claim and providing support for my position. On a relative basis, my argument is more likely to be true than yours.
What you are asking us to do is accept your argument (and to be honest, at this point I'm not even sure what it is) as if it is based on a robust analysis of a robust data set. You have supplied neither. Your argument is jejune. As was pointed out by another poster if you really understood statistics you would know this. Ergo, you don't.



I think the issue is that we were asking different questions. You’re looking at the question as what is the range loss for higher speed. That’s physics and a mathematical exercise. I believe that is about 15% range difference for every extra 10mph at around highway speed (per Dep of Energy). That is, you’ll lose about 15% to go 80 vs 70mph. This loss increases with speed as the formula is velocity squared.

The question I was addressing, and what the Inside Evs tests were addressing, was what is the range at 70mph vs what the EPA stated range for the vehicle is. The V EPA stated range is not just a simple average of city and highway driving, which is why the Taycan achieves such a higher than EPA result..
The overall average EV achieved only 1.3% lower range at constant 70mph than the EPA stated range. For Tesla’s, the average is negative 11.6% and the average non Tesla was actually positive 1.1%.
You claim to be conversant with statistics, then claimed you are not doing a statistical analysis and then use non robust statistics on a data set that has glaring outliers. I corrected that error in a previous post. The median (robust statistic) loss relative to the EPA number over all cars is -7.8%. Etc.


If you have fifteen minutes, this is a great video explaining range and the EPA process, comparing the Model S to the Taycan.
This guy is good. He is a real engineer and while I don't always agree with all his conclusions for the most part I do. The only thing I didn't like here was his admission that he really didn't know what the story is with the battery buffer size on the Tesla's but decided to make an assumotion and go on from there. One thing i did learn from this video is that the "drag" equation is cubic and not quartic as I had stated in an earlier post. I stand corrected on that.

On paper the Tesla has double the range but in reality it’s far less.
It's too bad you didn't understand what he is saying. He went to great length to explain why the Tesla (and Audi) numbers are better representative of the true EPA range than the other manufacturers who don't do the full set of tests. This is probably why I see numbers that agree well with the EPA number for my X (but of course other Tesla drivers do not probably because it is really hard to resist driving the cars in a way that degrade performance).

Failing to do those other tests underestimates EPA range and so, naturally, any drive data will show better performance relative to this reduced EPA number. He attributed this to laziness on the part of the other OEMs. I think perhaps it is sandbagging. It certainly takes in people like you.

I think very few understand what the EPA rating is and what is intended to do. The very fact that the naive comment on the "accuracy" the EPA rating illustrates this. How can one speak of the accuracy of a benchmark? What is more important is the reproducibility.
 

Wanderer

Banned
Active Member
Joined
May 28, 2021
Threads
0
Messages
39
Reaction score
74
Location
Texas
Vehicles
Etron
I used to interview engineering candidates. I often asked questions about statistics. I can assure you that if you made some of the statements you made in earlier posts (e.g. high confidence from a single measurement) you would not have gotten a job with any company I ever worked for.

The data does not support your argument.

What you are asking us to do is accept your argument (and to be honest, at this point I'm not even sure what it is) as if it is based on a robust analysis of a robust data set. You have supplied neither. Your argument is jejune. As was pointed out by another poster if you really understood statistics you would know this. Ergo, you don't.





You claim to be conversant with statistics, then claimed you are not doing a statistical analysis and then use non robust statistics on a data set that has glaring outliers. I corrected that error in a previous post. The median (robust statistic) loss relative to the EPA number over all cars is -7.8%. Etc.


This guy is good. He is a real engineer and while I don't always agree with all his conclusions for the most part I do. The only thing I didn't like here was his admission that he really didn't know what the story is with the battery buffer size on the Tesla's but decided to make an assumotion and go on from there. One thing i did learn from this video is that the "drag" equation is cubic and not quartic as I had stated in an earlier post. I stand corrected on that.

It's too bad you didn't understand what he is saying. He went to great length to explain why the Tesla (and Audi) numbers are better representative of the true EPA range than the other manufacturers who don't do the full set of tests. This is probably why I see numbers that agree well with the EPA number for my X (but of course other Tesla drivers do not probably because it is really hard to resist driving the cars in a way that degrade performance).

Failing to do those other tests underestimates EPA range and so, naturally, any drive data will show better performance relative to this reduced EPA number. He attributed this to laziness on the part of the other OEMs. I think perhaps it is sandbagging. It certainly takes in people like you.

I think very few understand what the EPA rating is and what is intended to do. The very fact that the naive comment on the "accuracy" the EPA rating illustrates this. How can one speak of the accuracy of a benchmark? What is more important is the reproducibility.
Look, the point is that before this devolved into a pissing match, the question posed was how much range does one need. You asserted that one would see a 20%+ reduction to stated range on the Rivian when on long highway trips.

Your assertion was based on the flawed assumption that the stated range was definitively an average of city and highway driving and therefore you will definitely see a large reduction on the highway.

The real answer to that question is we don’t know, but there is no evidence that supports that you will only get 240mi on the highway if the stated range is 300. The much more likely answer is that most EVs do not see anywhere near a 20% deviation, and I can point to several, including mine that see no appreciable deviation from stated range on long trips.

Based on the facts, one should assume the larger pack Rivian will achieve something relatively close to 300mi (if that is the final stated range) in highway driving (70mph) as a baseline before factoring in any other factors like wind, snow, rain, grade, etc. That’s the expectation until proven otherwise.

For those that want 100% proof are more than able to wait for that proof before ordering, very simple.
 

LoneStar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2020
Threads
78
Messages
1,572
Reaction score
3,496
Location
San Diego
Vehicles
'23 R1S Launch Ed.
Occupation
engineer
Clubs
 
I'm inclined at this point to pick the Max Pack battery just to relieve my anxiety about getting a LE then regretting it soon after when stats are published. Its not just the "extra range" but the extra capability to do things within a reasonable distance towing, hauling, off-roading.

To me there's an odd peace to the idea of jumping off the LE bandwagon, relaxed knowing I don't have to worry about when will it get here (in 2021). It won't be earlier than this time next year ??


besides, just got a RAV4-Prime plug-in hybrid to hold me over for about a year's time. At least I can get my mountain bike out beyond what I could only ride out to previously.
 
Last edited:

kylealden

Well-Known Member
First Name
Kyle
Joined
Feb 25, 2021
Threads
20
Messages
1,393
Reaction score
4,254
Location
Seattle
Vehicles
Rivian R1T LE, Tesla Model Y, Zero DSR/X, '69 CJ5
Occupation
Product Management
Get the biggest battery you can afford. Period.
Range is king.
Range is king.

for those who don’t own a Tesla, get this tip memorized in your head.
Range is King.


if you do end up buying buy an expensive Rivian you will thank the me for years to come.
Counterargument: I'm on my second Tesla (and never even upgraded past L1 charging at home). Range is nice, but not everyone needs it all. With good infrastructure and modest driving needs, $10k is king.

Nobody knows more about your driving needs than you do. Don't let others tell you what those are.
 

Sponsored

Trandall

Well-Known Member
First Name
Travis
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Threads
2
Messages
1,128
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Upstate NY
Vehicles
Rivian R1T, 2023 Mach-E
Occupation
Construction Management
Get the biggest battery you can afford. Period.
Range is king.
Range is king.

for those who don’t own a Tesla, get this tip memorized in your head.
Range is King.


if you do end up buying buy an expensive Rivian you will thank the me for years to come.
For clarity I'll start with the caveat that I have not owned an EV so feel free to disregard my opinion here.
Range is a significant factor however the following are also significant considerations:
  • DCFC saturation will surely increase making range progressively less a factor.
  • Charging curve is also a consideration and it to may improve through OTA updates.
  • Efficiency and performance suffer as a result of increased weight so financial cost is not the only drawback to max pack.
  • For some people environmental benefits of EV's are significant considerations and a 30% larger battery in your EV is certainly less "green".
 

Smithery

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Threads
4
Messages
404
Reaction score
737
Location
California
Vehicles
MX 100D, XC70, Cooper S JCW, R1T Large
Counterargument: I'm on my second Tesla (and never even upgraded past L1 charging at home). Range is nice, but not everyone needs it all. With good infrastructure and modest driving needs, $10k is king.

Nobody knows more about your driving needs than you do. Don't let others tell you what those are.
The warranty for battery replacement is:
  • Battery Pack: Coverage includes all components inside the high-voltage battery and 70% or more of the battery capacity for 8 years or 175,000 miles, whichever comes first
This means a battery that has lost 29.9% capacity in 8 years/175k miles is considered normal and within spec.

If you're in it for the long haul, and you drive leisurely enough that you get the full 300mi range, and you are completely okay with your truck only getting 210mi after 8 years... And you know you're never going to decide to drive more quickly or tow anything or put any meaningful payload in the truck bed...

Then go for it. That's the spec you're playing with.

But if you KNOW 300mi will always be good enough for every leg of a trip you'll want to take between charging stops, but have not considered that 210mi means you'll be stopping more...

Time is money. And over a long enough period of time, all those stops will add up to the $10k you saved on a $70k truck a few years ago.

For folks new to EVs who haven't carefully considered all the differences that batteries vs gas imply, and who are still on the fence... Those of us shouting "range is king" from the rooftops are right.

There's definitely folks on here with EV experience who have carefully considered all the pros and cons and are making the "large pack is good enough" informed decision. And that's fine.

But I also think there's a fair number of folks who just want their LE and don't want to wait and are therefore ignoring something they need to hear.
 

sevengroove

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Threads
25
Messages
1,304
Reaction score
2,777
Location
Seattle, WA
Vehicles
R1S Launch Edition
Get the biggest battery you can afford. Period.
Range is king.
Range is king.

for those who don’t own a Tesla, get this tip memorized in your head.
Range is King.


if you do end up buying buy an expensive Rivian you will thank the me for years to come.
Range may be King, but not everyone wants to be Alexander the Great.
 

Trandall

Well-Known Member
First Name
Travis
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Threads
2
Messages
1,128
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Upstate NY
Vehicles
Rivian R1T, 2023 Mach-E
Occupation
Construction Management
The 95% was a joke, because it doesn’t need to be a statistical exercise
You see Wanderer there's where you went wrong... AJ does not joke.

AJ, glad your back I missed your relentless debates.

I have no idea who is more correct but for some weird reason I find the back and forth entertaining. Especially considering the overriding theme of this thread "Do I really need the max pack?" Little did the author know what they were getting into... apologies for the interruption, carry on.
 

Inkedsphynx

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 27, 2021
Threads
4
Messages
1,021
Reaction score
2,031
Location
Washington
Vehicles
'22 LE R1T, '21 CB500FA, '21 CMX1100A
The value proposition for Rivian on the 8-year 70% battery warranty would indicate that they do not expect the average battery to be anywhere close to 70% at that timeframe. Warranties exist for outliers, not for the average. I think it's entirely unreasonable to assume that 30% loss is a gaurantee.

How many people on this very forum have posted their experience with battery degradation in other EVs? How many have seen 30% loss over 8 years (or a rate of loss that would indicate the same for those who haven't owned for 8 years).

I honestly cannot recall a single post where someone has indicated they got that level of loss over that type of timeframe.

For all the 'range is king' people out there - it is for *you*. Not everyone has the same needs or desires and there's not one damn thing about your opinion that makes it the right opinion for anyone but *you*.

For the 'time is money' crowd - it's only money if you're using it to make money. If I viewed every hour of my day as being worth what I make on a converted hourly rate from my employer, I'd probably never do anything. Time is money, so sitting in a movie theater for 2 hours costs me the ticket, the concessions, and the 2 hours of my time. That's a damn expensive movie.

Point being - this mindset can only be taken so far if you want to, you know, actually *live* a life.

I want an LE because I do want it sooner. I also don't *need* 400 miles. I've got an ICE vehicle if I absolutely need to tow for a range farther than I can get on any given day in any given condition in my R1T. I live in a place that doesn't typically get too hot or too cold. There's a ton of charging infrastructure already here and a ton more on the way. My overlanding needs will be served by the RAN when it is up and running and my ICE will serve for long trips until then.

Again, the point of this is that range may be king for *you* but it isn't for everyone. Thanks for your opinions.
Sponsored

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
 




Top