Do I really need the Max Pack?

Gshenderson

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Part of my calculus on large vs. max pack was the timing. Not only that I want the truck sooner (I do!), but also the fact that the longer I wait, the less important max pack will be due to additional infrastructure build out. The other item that played into it for me was the extra stuff that comes for free with Launch Edition which makes the “cost” of max pack > $10,000 since things like 20” wheels are requirements for me. Anyway, as @Smithery says, each person will need to assess their own situation and make the best decision for them. Seeing all of the various perspectives of others hopefully helps folks consider the full spectrum of pros and cons to make that decision.
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Smithery

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Again, the point of this is that range may be king for *you* but it isn't for everyone. Thanks for your opinions.
My opinion is "range is king", yes.

Each individual person has their own calculus, and no one person can make a blanket statement that will be true for all individuals.

If you look at survey after survey after survey for EV ownership as a whole since the renaissance, an overwhelming takeaway from respondents is "I wish it went farther on one charge"

That includes Tesla owners with Superchargers at their disposal, so "the charging infrastructure will magically fix this later" seems like a dubious conclusion.

Again, this is all individual anecdotes vs statistical science.
You do you. And you've truly thought about all these things, great!

If you're new to this world and haven't made up your mind yet, the "range is king" people are gonna keep shouting it from the rooftops.
 

ajdelange

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Look, the point is that before this devolved into a pissing match, the question posed was how much range does one need. You asserted that one would see a 20%+ reduction to stated range on the Rivian when on long highway trips.
Show me where I said that and I'll fix it. What I most probably said, because it is the truth, is that the range you will get depends on how, where and when you drive and that I usually get better than the rated range in my X. As I don't, based on what I know about Rivian at this point, have any reason to suppose that it will perform any differently from the Tesla, I would expect to achieve the same sort of performance from it.

Your assertion was based on the flawed assumption that the stated range was definitively an average of city and highway driving and therefore you will definitely see a large reduction on the highway.
Well as you have my assertion wrong It's king of hard to answer as to why you think it is wrong. There are some murky areas in EPA range rating but if you watch the video and try to understand what he is saying and if you understand that an EPA rating is a benchmark then you may understand that the Tesla benchmark is a good one in that a driver with understanding of these matters will be able to use it to predict range under different driving circumstances pretty accurately, I can do that so I must not be making too many flawed assumptions. And, of course, the assumption that rated range is an average of city and highway ratings isn't at all flawed. That is indeed what it is but it is a weighted average. And in the case of Tesla and Audi there are some other weighted components in there too.

The real answer to that question is we don’t know, but there is no evidence that supports that you will only get 240mi on the highway if the stated range is 300.
My rated consumption is 282 Wh/mi. With my 99 kWh battery that corresponds to 351 miles rated range. In fact I usually realize pretty close to this over all. Right now the clock says I am averaging 255 Wh/mi because i've been doing mostly around town but there is a fair amount of freeway in there.


The much more likely answer is that most EVs do not see anywhere near a 20% deviation, and I can point to several, including mine that see no appreciable deviation from stated range on long trips.
You really should look at what your car is doing. As noted in mixed driving I see 255 Wh/mi on a vehicle rated at 282. That represents 11% better than rated. Here are the stats for my 10 longest (highway) trips

•wavestats wave6
V_npnts= 10; V_numNaNs= 0; V_numINFs= 0; V_avg= 295.1;
V_Sum= 2951; V_sdev= 35.2403; V_sem= 11.144; V_rms= 296.988;
V_adev= 23.7; V_skew= 1.35838; V_kurt= 1.04335; V_minloc= 6;
V_maxloc= 2; V_min= 262; V_max= 383; V_minRowLoc= 6;
V_maxRowLoc= 2; V_startRow= 0; V_endRow= 9;
•print V_sdev/V_avg
0.119418

The average was 295.1 representing about 5% range loss re EPA. Note that the Standard Deviation was 35 Wh/mi, that the SEM is 11.1 and that the CV (down at the bottom) is 12%. And that the span is 161 Wh/mi equal to 55.4% of the mean/median. And you doubt deviations exceed 20%. Do you ever look at your gauges?

Now it's clear that you don't understand statistics but what this data, small though the sample size be (n = 10), tells us is that on average operating at high speed on the freeway is going to give us range about 5% less than the EPA rated range but that we can expect to experience as much as 26% range loss relative to EPA (rain, snow, headwind, mostly up hill...) but occasionally we'll have a trip where we will get 7.7% better range than the EPA stated one (tailwind, downhill).

There are a whole bunch of caveats that go with this data not the least of which is that it represents a single driver and not only that but one who achieves better range than the majority of other Tesla drivers

Based on the facts, one should assume the larger pack Rivian will achieve something relatively close to 300mi (if that is the final stated range) in highway driving (70mph) as a baseline before factoring in any other factors like wind, snow, rain, grade, etc. That’s the expectation until proven otherwise.
Based on the facts one should be cautious as to how Rivian will perform because we have no real world data on Rivian. Best we can do is guess than Rivian drivers will, as a population, be about as good or bad as Tesla drivers (note that there may be available data bases for other makes but I don't know of them) and try to draw conclusions from Tesla driver's performance. At this time of year the average Tesla driver is experiencing 12% loss relative to rated with the median being the same (because the distribution in Gaussian) and with standard deviation of 12%. This means that 83% of drivers don't achieve EPA range but that 17% exceed or achieve it. When I ask how the population is able to do so poorly relative to what I can do the usual answers are that the guys just love to floor it out of every stoplight and that lots of the driving is done on freeways where the speed limit is 75. To someone who understands how this works those are reasonable explanations.

A prudent man will expect that the Rivian population will experience similar fleet performance. As Tesla sedans and SUV's are used for different purposes the distribution will probably be a little different from Tesla. But broadly speaking things should be similar. People driving on high speed freeways won't achieve EPA range. People who can't resist the thrill of 0.8g's etc won't achieve EPA. People who tow won't. But a fair proportion of drivers will achieve or best the EPA rated range.
 
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CommodoreAmiga

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The warranty for battery replacement is:
  • Battery Pack: Coverage includes all components inside the high-voltage battery and 70% or more of the battery capacity for 8 years or 175,000 miles, whichever comes first
This means a battery that has lost 29.9% capacity in 8 years/175k miles is considered normal and within spec.
I don't think that's a fair statement.

I expect most people will see far less battery degradation. Rivian set their warranty threshold at a level that would protect customers and the Rivian brand without causing excessive warranty claims. Although 70% is the threshold to get a NEW battery pack, that doesn't mean that most people will see degradation near that level.
 

PastyPilgrim

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The upside of slow production and likely not getting my preorder for years to come is being able to get practical data from reviewers and LE buyers.

If the consensus from drivers is a scenario like: cold weather + AT tires + highway speeds brings 300mi down to 200mi, with any extra weight (e.g. kitchen, cargo, towing, etc.) or aero changes (e.g. tent, bikes, etc.) bringing that range closer to 100mi, and 80% charging bringing that down even further, then yeah, probably gonna want the max pack.

If the worst, practical/realistic case for me given the real experiences is still reasonable (e.g. 250mi) then I'm content with the large pack.

The only thing I know right now is that nothing can be determined from the vague ('bout 300mi depending on options and circumstances!) data Rivian has provided.
 

ajdelange

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For clarity I'll start with the caveat that I have not owned an EV so feel free to disregard my opinion here.
. Nope. Won't do that.

  • DCFC saturation will surely increase making range progressively less a factor.
    The fear factor aspect of battery size should dissipate but the convenience and runway aspects won't.
  • Charging curve is also a consideration and it to may improve through OTA updates.
    Charging curves are not that much of a factor. What determines how the car charges is the car. A bigger battery can accept charge at a faster rate than a smaller one. As the Wh/mi for both battery pack sizes is about the same you will be able to add more mph to a larger pack. Of course with a larger pack you will be tempted to do longer legs and need those extra mph.
  • Efficiency and performance suffer as a result of increased weight so financial cost is not the only drawback to max pack.
    Only a little bit. Go to ABRP, run a trip, repeat with 1000 lbs extra load and see how much difference it makes.
  • For some people environmental benefits of EV's are significant considerations and a 30% larger battery in your EV is certainly less "green".
    Can't argue that one and wouldn't if I could.
 

ajdelange

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The only thing I know right now is that nothing can be determined from the vague ('bout 300mi depending on options and circumstances!) data Rivian has provided.
That's not really true. One can tell a lot from Rivians declaration that EPA range will be 300 mi+. If you drive the truck (by itself i.e. no towing) conservatively in a mix of around town and freeway you will get better than 300 miles. If you drive it around town like a cowboy, you will get less losing from say 5 - 15% depending on how aggressive you are. On long trips you will average perhaps 285 miles but occasionally you will experience dramatically more loss than this 5%. The question is as to how often you will have drama and how dramatic it will be. This can't be predicted but I have listed what the sources of drama are in other posts. Among these are exceptionally hot or cold weather, head winds, wet pavement, snow, sand or gravel, positive grade and especially towing. There will also be times when you will get range of better than 300 miles. This is when you have a tail wind and/or negative grade. Whatever the situation it is always nice to have as much battery on board as possible. I often think of the bigger battery as insurance against the wide variability in load but it also allows greater flexibility and shortens charging times. Only downsides are that you have to pay for the extra capacity and in these times of dearth you have to wait.

The vehicle will have some pretty sophisticated instrumentation to tell you when you are getting into a dramatic situation.

There are, of course, still some uncertainties but certainly what Rivian has released to date is sufficient to inform a decision. This is a no-brainer for people who have BEV experience. The problem is in trying to help out those who don't because while they may understand what I have written here they can't really fully appreciate what it means because of this lack.

When the LE's hit the streets and people start reporting in you won't see any refutation of what I have written here but I am certainly not suggesting that you make a decision based on this post. If you've been following this thread you know there is a guy here who objects to every one of the statements I've made here. Without relevant experience how are you to know he isn't right to so object?
 

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That's not really true. One can tell a lot from Rivians declaration that EPA range will be 300 mi+. If you drive the truck (by itself i.e. no towing) conservatively in a mix of around town and freeway you will get better than 300 miles. If you drive it around town like a cowboy, you will get less losing from say 5 - 15% depending on how aggressive you are. On long trips you will average perhaps 285 miles but occasionally you will experience dramatically more loss than this 5%. The question is as to how often you will have drama and how dramatic it will be. This can't be predicted but I have listed what the sources of drama are in other posts. Among these are exceptionally hot or cold weather, head winds, wet pavement, snow, sand or gravel, positive grade and especially towing. There will also be times when you will get range of better than 300 miles. This is when you have a tail wind and/or negative grade. Whatever the situation it is always nice to have as much battery on board as possible. I often think of the bigger battery as insurance against the wide variability in load but it also allows greater flexibility and shortens charging times. Only downsides are that you have to pay for the extra capacity and in these times of dearth you have to wait.

The vehicle will have some pretty sophisticated instrumentation to tell you when you are getting into a dramatic situation.

There are, of course, still some uncertainties but certainly what Rivian has released to date is sufficient to inform a decision. This is a no-brainer for people who have BEV experience. The problem is in trying to help out those who don't because while they may understand what I have written here they can't really fully appreciate what it means because of this lack.

When the LE's hit the streets and people start reporting in you won't see any refutation of what I have written here but I am certainly not suggesting that you make a decision based on this post. If you've been following this thread you know there is a guy here who objects to every one of the statements I've made here. Without relevant experience how are you to know he isn't right to so object?
This is actually the most reasonable thing you’ve ever said and glad you finally came around to my point of view. I agree with all of this 100% and just wish we avoided all the back and forth and you agreed with me from the start.
 

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. Nope. Won't do that.

  • The fear factor aspect of battery size should dissipate but the convenience and runway aspects won't.
  • Charging curves are not that much of a factor. What determines how the car charges is the car. A bigger battery can accept charge at a faster rate than a smaller one. As the Wh/mi for both battery pack sizes is about the same you will be able to add more mph to a larger pack. Of course with a larger pack you will be tempted to do longer legs and need those extra mph.
  • Only a little bit. Go to ABRP, run a trip, repeat with 1000 lbs extra load and see how much difference it makes.
  • Can't argue that one and wouldn't if I could.
Concerning charging rate is it a pipe dream to believe that for a given battery the C rate could increase from 1.2 -1.5 through OTA updates? Also in my mind I was also thinking of common DCFC locations increasing from 50-150KWH up to the 350KWH range to take full advantage of Rivians capability but I debated how to categorize this and ultimately opted to omit it.
Regarding performance I was also considering the weight penalty while breaking, cornering, off-roading as well as increased tire degradation. I agree the KWH efficiency does not take to bad of a hit. I downloaded ABRP and have ran some test journeys with it for my use case and found it usefull. My biggest concern is living in upstate NY with the low temperature, HVAC use and snowy road conditions looking at 50% hit. Ultimately aside form a few late season Buffalo Bills games or dare I say home play-offs I don't tend to road trip in the winter and my commute is ~70 miles round trip.
Lastly, in full disclosure I'm also trying to quell my own range anxiety as a future LE owner new to BEV's
 

ajdelange

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This is actually the most reasonable thing you’ve ever said and glad you finally came around to my point of view. I agree with all of this 100% and just wish we avoided all the back and forth and you agreed with me from the start.
Delighted that you are at peace with this finally but I would like to point out that this is what I have been saying all along and have been saying since well before you joined this forum. IOW this has always been my point of view since I started looking at data from my cars. I am totally puzzled as to how you could read my stuff and conclude otherwise. Just out of curiosity do you now accept that rain can eat your lunch?
 
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Delighted that you are at peace with this finally but I would like to point out that this is what I have been saying all along and have been saying since well before you joined this forum.
It’s also what I was saying, so what were we debating? We’ll rule it a no contest.
 

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Wait... @TessP100D , do you think range is king? I wasn't sure.

You're wrong about the "long time" thing though. EV awareness & sales are gaining steam, and CCS fast charging infrastructure will be prolific before you realize it.
will see. Let’s all hope that it gets better. But public ev charging has a long way to go. Installing them is one thing and not bit small thing. But maintaining them is something else. As it stands now only Tesla has a reliable system. Hopfuly that will change.

for those Of you who don’t own an EV now (Tesla), the reality will hit you hard

range is King.
For clarity I'll start with the caveat that I have not owned an EV so feel free to disregard my opinion here.
Range is a significant factor however the following are also significant considerations:
  • DCFC saturation will surely increase making range progressively less a factor.
  • Charging curve is also a consideration and it to may improve through OTA updates.
  • Efficiency and performance suffer as a result of increased weight so financial cost is not the only drawback to max pack.
  • For some people environmental benefits of EV's are significant considerations and a 30% larger battery in your EV is certainly less "green".
ok. Good points.

i want to travel 2 hours in each direction without charging on the road.
i have never once thought the extra weight of a larger battery is a concern at all.
butbif that nit here you. Ok
 

TessP100D

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The value proposition for Rivian on the 8-year 70% battery warranty would indicate that they do not expect the average battery to be anywhere close to 70% at that timeframe. Warranties exist for outliers, not for the average. I think it's entirely unreasonable to assume that 30% loss is a gaurantee.

How many people on this very forum have posted their experience with battery degradation in other EVs? How many have seen 30% loss over 8 years (or a rate of loss that would indicate the same for those who haven't owned for 8 years).

I honestly cannot recall a single post where someone has indicated they got that level of loss over that type of timeframe.

For all the 'range is king' people out there - it is for *you*. Not everyone has the same needs or desires and there's not one damn thing about your opinion that makes it the right opinion for anyone but *you*.

For the 'time is money' crowd - it's only money if you're using it to make money. If I viewed every hour of my day as being worth what I make on a converted hourly rate from my employer, I'd probably never do anything. Time is money, so sitting in a movie theater for 2 hours costs me the ticket, the concessions, and the 2 hours of my time. That's a damn expensive movie.

Point being - this mindset can only be taken so far if you want to, you know, actually *live* a life.

I want an LE because I do want it sooner. I also don't *need* 400 miles. I've got an ICE vehicle if I absolutely need to tow for a range farther than I can get on any given day in any given condition in my R1T. I live in a place that doesn't typically get too hot or too cold. There's a ton of charging infrastructure already here and a ton more on the way. My overlanding needs will be served by the RAN when it is up and running and my ICE will serve for long trips until then.

Again, the point of this is that range may be king for *you* but it isn't for everyone. Thanks for your opinions.
Ok. Good points.
‘’I wish you luck and I hope you get your truck very soon.
 

ajdelange

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Concerning charging rate is it a pipe dream to believe that for a given battery the C rate could increase from 1.2 -1.5 through OTA updates?
No, not at all. A charge rate of 1C is sort of the traditional number. You see it marked on LiPo's for model cars and planes and Teslas seem to charge at that average rate. But there is, of course, a push for faster charging. One of the Korean makers (can't remember which) seems to be charging at 2C so yes, I think it is definitely on the way.

Also in my mind I was also thinking of common DCFC locations increasing from 50-150KWH up to the 350KWH range to take full advantage of Rivians capability but I debated how to categorize this and ultimately opted to omit it.
The Charin HP350 chargers will, as the name suggests, deliver up to 350 kW. I don't remember the voltage range but I think it is up to 950 and current max up to 500 (?) but the product cannot exceed 350 kW. Rivian's batter pack is evidently two 400 V packs in parallel. They can be switched into a series configuration for charging at 800 V (nominal - the car asks for what it wants to get the current it wants) and thus the Rivians can charge at up to 300 kW from a CharIN 350 charger (EA).


My biggest concern is living in upstate NY with the low temperature, HVAC use and snowy road conditions looking at 50% hit.
Oh, you mean that part of the country where I used to take the battery out of the car and drain the oil each night, take them inside and heat the oil on my wife's stove each morning? Yes, I remember that (and not too fondly). I moved south years ago and so can't comment first hand but be comforted that BEV are extremely popular in Norway and it's pretty cold there too. I think the battery range hit is somewhat exaggerated. There are some things you can do such a protect the truck from wind and charge it with completion at around the time you are ready to depart. The truck will have battery heaters and it is probable that if it is plugged in it will heat it from shore power. The thing I would most fear in terms of range loss is snow, slush or rain water on the road bed. Pushing them out of the way takes quite a bit of power.

Lastly, in full disclosure I'm also trying to quell my own range anxiety as a future LE owner new to BEV's
Absolutely normal. I can assure you that there is nothing to be anxious about with Tesla. I'm not so sure about Rivian because the CCS charging network isn't quite up there with the SC net yet. My gut feel, based on ABRP is that we will be fine.
 

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How many people on this very forum have posted their experience with battery degradation in other EVs? How many have seen 30% loss over 8 years (or a rate of loss that would indicate the same for those who haven't owned for 8 years).
6 years and 60,000 miles on Tesla S 85D. 1% loss in full charge battery mileage.
 
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