Top 5 Reasons Switching to a Tesla Dominated NACS Standard is a Colossal Mistake for the Consumer

[DuoRivians]

You seriously are asking if Elon Musk has lied about something?

I would list plenty, but my previous posts on this matter have been removed as being “political” by the mods. So, one has to do their own google search

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[Toadkillerdog]

We are not anti NACS people, we are anti monopolies. You are way behind my forum friend.

I think you are a little overwrought about this. Things will naturally settle out eventually and it will be alright. Doom and gloom gets old.

 

[COdogman]

I would list plenty, but my previous posts on this matter have been removed as being “political” by the mods. So, one has to do their own google search

It’s a rabbit hole that will only distract from the topic at hand. I am just genuinely surprised that he asked the question as if he just landed on earth and his first move was to joint this forum.

 

[Joel]

CharIn said today that it "will work to convene an open task force to align requirements to submit NACS to the standardization process."

 

[SASSquatch]

I think you are a little overwrought about this. Things will naturally settle out eventually and it will be alright. Doom and gloom gets old.

I'm not sure why voicing opposition is "doom and gloom" but you are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else.

My view is that there is significant misrepresentation for most people about what adopting a NACS standard really means. People conflate NACS with the Tesla Supercharger experience. That is not what NACS will be for anyone who doesn't own a Tesla. What it will be, is pretty much the same hoops as CCS but at a higher cost because there will be no effective competition.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

At this point I feel the momentum is so strong for NACS happening and taking over that it is pointless to argue about. The anti NACS people sound like the pro Apple CarPlay for Rivian In that they are not going to get their way no matter how much they talk about it here. Edit. And I get their fears but I think it is just about a done thing

What happened was there was momentum for CCS to be the standard in North America. It wasn't perfect by any means, but with good chargers like Rivians chargers it was solid. There was a lot of federal funding going to CCS based chargers, and Tesla was even adding the Magic Dock to chargers.

Things looked pretty good for a single charging standard where Tesla would likely simply have to adopt it like they did in Europe. Or simply continue on with having their own along with an adapter for CCS charging needs.

But, then things shifted.

You claim that the momentum is so strong for NACS to happen that it's pointless to talk about. But, it doesn't seem like you understand how much weight CCS still has.

You have the federal government supporting CCS
You have manufactures like VW/Audi/Porsche, Kia/Hyundai and others that are still firmly in the CCS camp.

I honestly don't see Rivian owners like myself any closer today at being able to charge at Tesla Supercharger location then I was before all this happened.

As an EV consumer I'm no closer to being able to ignore the charger port than I was before this went down.

 

[Toadkillerdog]

There will be competition though. Most small charger companies are onboard with NACS and I suspect strongly EA will all also join the herd. I also think that if Tesla becomes monopolistic it Will be broken up by the government as has been done in the past.

 

[DuoRivians]

There will be competition though. Most small charger companies are onboard with NACS and I suspect strongly EA will all also join the herd. I also think that if Tesla becomes monopolistic it Will be broken up by the government as has been done in the past.

The point we’re trying to make is that small steps could be taken today, to help prevent a risk of monopoly in the future. All else equal, the consumer benefits.

That small step, at minimum, is getting NACS to become a standard that’s controlled by an independent third party standards board. This at least hedges the risk that Tesla will change the NACS standard unilaterally, because they still have the patent. (Open sourcing it simply means that Tesla has the right to use any improvements others may come up with, without IP risks. But the reciprocal isn’t necessarily true—Tesla can decide to un-open source it as long as it’s their patent)

So, if NACS patent is released and the standard controlled by an independent 3rd party board, then I would say everyone here would be on board with NACS changeover.

 

[Toadkillerdog]

What happened was there was momentum for CCS to be the standard in North America. It wasn't perfect by any means, but with good chargers like Rivians chargers it was solid. There was a lot of federal funding going to CCS based chargers, and Tesla was even adding the Magic Dock to chargers.

Things looked pretty good for a single charger where Tesla would likely simply have to adopt it like they did in Europe.

But, then things shifted.

You claim that the momentum is so strong for NACS to happen that it's pointless to talk about. But, it doesn't seem like you understand how much weight CCS still has.

You have the federal government supporting CCS
You have manufactures like VW/Audi/Porsche, Kia/Hyundai and others that are still firmly in the CCS camp.

I honestly don't see Rivian owners like myself any closer today at being able to charge at Tesla Supercharger location then I was before all this happened.

As an EV consumer I'm no closer to being able to ignore the charger port than I was before this went down.

I think you make good points but I think most of these car makers will cave and go NACS because of the competitive advantage Ford and GM now enjoy. the Feds will support Tesla if they also have ccs connectors I believe. Anyhow I do most of my charging at home and will rarely travel. Almost every charging station I encounter on the turnpike has been Tesla. Sure wish I could use them natively

 

[Toadkillerdog]

The point we’re trying to make is that small steps could be taken today, to help prevent a risk of monopoly in the future. All else equal, the consumer benefits.

That small step, at minimum, is getting NACS to become a standard that’s controlled by an independent third party standards board. This at least hedges the risk that Tesla will change the NACS standard unilaterally, because they still have the patent. (Open sourcing it simply means that Tesla has the right to use any improvements others may come up with, without IP risks. But the reciprocal isn’t necessarily true—Tesla can decide to un-open source it as long as it’s their patent)

So, if NACS patent is released and the standard controlled by a 3rd party, then I would say everyone here would be on board with NACS changeover.

I would be far happier if Elon submitted NACS to a 3rd party for standardization as well I agree with that. I just want working chargers that are reliable and Tesla has by far the most reliable system. No one else comes close. That is sad.

 

[SASSquatch]

There will be competition though. Most small charger companies are onboard with NACS and I suspect strongly EA will all also join the herd. I also think that if Tesla becomes monopolistic it Will be broken up by the government as has been done in the past.

You make extremely fair points. Here is the problem. Look at the sorry state of 3rd party CCS chargers in the US. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the fact that these chargers are CCS has nothing to do with them being sorry.

We are blaming the CCS standard for something unrelated to the problem. Third parties can't standardize their experience like Tesla can with a walled garden. They have to interact with all OEMs and deal with each of their charging behaviors.

Also, the 3rd parties have vastly different support, repair, and reliability ratings. Even if every 3rd party was already using NACS - it wouldn't make the experience any better.

The experience is actually less about the port and more about the platform! Has anyone that used a Rivian RAN network charger had a terrible experience? Rivian controls the platform and only needs to currently worry about serving Rivian vehicles so it is much ea

What happened was there was momentum for CCS to be the standard in North America. It wasn't perfect by any means, but with good chargers like Rivians chargers it was solid. There was a lot of federal funding going to CCS based chargers, and Tesla was even adding the Magic Dock to chargers.

Things looked pretty good for a single charging standard where Tesla would likely simply have to adopt it like they did in Europe. Or simply continue on with having their own along with an adapter for CCS charging needs.

But, then things shifted.

You claim that the momentum is so strong for NACS to happen that it's pointless to talk about. But, it doesn't seem like you understand how much weight CCS still has.

You have the federal government supporting CCS
You have manufactures like VW/Audi/Porsche, Kia/Hyundai and others that are still firmly in the CCS camp.

I honestly don't see Rivian owners like myself any closer today at being able to charge at Tesla Supercharger location then I was before all this happened.

As an EV consumer I'm no closer to being able to ignore the charger port than I was before this went down.

People are conflating the NACS port/standard with the Tesla Supercharging Platform. They are not the same.

Third parties in the US have done a horrific job of creating a reliable and simple to use CCS charging infrastructure. How much does that really have to do with the CCS port?

I would venture to say zero. It has to do with 3rd parties being generally terrible, having slow response times to update, repair, and install charging infrastructure.

Look at the Rivian RAN network as an example of a CCS network that people love to use. How many complaints have you heard about RAN? Yes, there aren't that many chargers out there, but most have described their experience have been very satisfied.

That's because RAN, like Tesla Supercharger is a walled garden that Rivian controls.

 

[SASSquatch]

I would be far happier if Elon submitted NACS to a 3rd party for standardization as well I agree with that. I just want working chargers that are reliable and Tesla has by far the most reliable system. No one else comes close. That is sad.

Yes someone does come close. Rivian RAN. Which is a CCS system. It is also a walled garden like Tesla.

CCS isn't the bad guy. NACS isn't the good guy. It's the walled garden that you are actually benefiting from. It helps standardize the experience. That is what NEVI funding is trying to do for 3rd parties.

 

[DuoRivians]

I would be far happier if Elon submitted NACS to a 3rd party for standardization as well I agree with that. I just want working chargers that are reliable and Tesla has by far the most reliable system. No one else comes close. That is sad.

Thank you for acknowledging that—it honestly feels like very few people have.

And yes, I agree that the reliability and availability of superchargers are great.

 

[DuoRivians]

Yes someone does come close. Rivian RAN. Which is a CCS system. It is also a walled garden like Tesla.

CCS isn't the bad guy. NACS isn't the good guy. It's the walled garden that you are actually benefiting from. It helps standardize the experience. That is what NEVI funding is trying to do for 3rd parties.

I believe the intent of RANs being closed to Rivians only is so that they can 1/ improve reliability and upgrade hardware first and 2/ implement software to be able to conform to ISO 15118 to handle uniform payments across oems. If I can recall, early 2024 was when they plan on opening it up to all

 

[Toadkillerdog]

Third party companies have done a terrible job with consistency and quality charging experiences. I hope RAN chargers continue to have good quality. When there are a few hundred out there we will se true reliability numbers. I do not hate CCS. I hate the typical CCS charging experience though up to now Edit: I don’t know why I enjoy this forum so much haha but maybe part of it is I’m getting a rounded EV education

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