Had my First Drive... very impressed, but will now almost certainly cancel my pre-order.

[graemebshaw]

The second reason is an odd one, to me. We're getting an R1T in part because it will be very good in winter. Temperatures routinely in the negative double digits here. Biblical winds etc.
Four motors and high weight will help traction. Studded winter tires will make it unstoppable.

If you are having traction issues, it's your tires.

Since I live in the city (Brooklyn), studded tires are not really a good option for me. But that would definitely help upstate! And again, I might be wrong (which is why I posted the question), but if you assume a skid is inevitable eventually, I assume the heavier weight of an EV limits your ability to stop it before bad things happens.

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[LaunchGreen]

It sounds like a Fing spaceship and that's awesome. It's faster than a Porsche 911 and I took it 15 miles up mountain on a rocky road this weekend. I LOVED my 2009 range rover - had it for 13 years and beat the crap out of it - but the Rivian is better in nearly every regard.

"not a machine" is simply because your perception of a machine is outdated - it doesn't need to sound like a Harley to perform.

 

[Inkedsphynx]

Since I live in the city (Brooklyn), studded tires are not really a good option for me. But that would definitely help upstate! And again, I might be wrong (which is why I posted the question), but if you assume a skid is inevitable eventually, I assume the heavier weight of an EV limits your ability to stop it before bad things happens.

I'd argue that the extra weight makes it more likely you'll stop the skid, not less. More weight == more pressure to the ground == more traction. You're also much less likely to roll if you do suddenly catch traction in a skid due to the lower center of gravity.

 

[Gator42]

So my question before I cancel the order is whether any of the Colorado owners have experience driving the R1T in terrible conditions on the highway? Does the extra weight/momentum help or hurt?

I'll try to speak to this, having grown up in Saratoga, took my driver's test in a snowstorm in Ballston Spa, and know that often unplowed area of the Northway intimately...

Heavy vs. light weight in terms of driving safety really hasn't got much to do with it. More important are AWD, 4WD, if the weight is over the drive axle(s), front rear weight distribution, tire tread and traction, driver assist features, etc. My VW Bug was way better in the snow and ice than the heavy RWD pickup for example.

...now if you're worried about what happens when you get unstuck from the road because of snow and ice- you're pretty much a knuckleballing projectile at the mercy of grip. If you're gonna hit something I always preferred more vs less- 'room to live' as my driver's ed instructor would say...

Maybe also consider moving your house closer to where you want to get to?

 

[zefram47]

I'd argue that the extra weight makes it more likely you'll stop the skid, not less. More weight == more pressure to the ground == more traction.

Negative. Even on a high-mu surface it takes far more effort to stop a heavy vehicle. I used to go ice racing with my Subaru STi and it was a blast. When I tried the same with my 4Runner that weighed 2000 lbs more, it was very much not fun because it wouldn't change direction or slow down as well as the STi did on the ice. Even at extreme low speed on a snowy/icy trail as a few reviewers did on YouTube with the R1T, its extra mass is a problem as it wants to slide off the trail in places where a lighter vehicle wouldn't have an issue.

As above, tires are the only thing that can really help aside from slowing down as one should in bad conditions anyway. The Pirelli AT tires that come from the factory are 3PMSF rated, but as one who's run both full snow tires and 3PMSF ATs...there's no comparison with actual snow tires.

 

[M00v0vr]

Since I live in the city (Brooklyn), studded tires are not really a good option for me. But that would definitely help upstate! And again, I might be wrong (which is why I posted the question), but if you assume a skid is inevitable eventually, I assume the heavier weight of an EV limits your ability to stop it before bad things happens.

I have the same concerns regarding 7000 lbs of mass moving in a direction I dont want it to go. I live @ 4k ft and still have 4 ft of snow in my back yard (Mt Hood National Forest) and the road I travel most can become a skating rink at times in the winter. With that said I think it would do fine with the correct tires, my rover does a great job w/dedicated snows in the winter and its also a pig. BTW I don't use studs, they totally destroy the roads and make things more dangerous here, IMO.
With the debacle of my Rivian order, if you want to pass, I would jump all over your res, would be great to do a super long road trip from NY. to Mt Hood.

 

[Davethadog]

I'll bet you $20 you don't have that 392 in 10 years.

 

[graemebshaw]

I'll try to speak to this, having grown up in Saratoga, took my driver's test in a snowstorm in Ballston Spa, and know that often unplowed area of the Northway intimately...

Heavy vs. light weight in terms of driving safety really hasn't got much to do with it. More important are AWD, 4WD, if the weight is over the drive axle(s), front rear weight distribution, tire tread and traction, driver assist features, etc. My VW Bug was way better in the snow and ice than the heavy RWD pickup for example.

...now if you're worried about what happens when you get unstuck from the road because of snow and ice- you're pretty much a knuckleballing projectile at the mercy of grip. If you're gonna hit something I always preferred more vs less- 'room to live' as my driver's ed instructor would say...

Maybe also consider moving your house closer to where you want to get to?

Thank you... this is exactly my experience on the Northway (feeling like a knuckleballing projectile)! You make a good argument for an overbuilt tank like the R1T! And I wish I could live more my time up there (we have a house near Chestertown) but work keeps me in NYC during the weekdays.

 

[Foobar]

As someone who's been a gearhead his entire life, I can tell you that my Tesla Model 3 Performance has been the car I enjoy driving the most. That said, I very much miss installing my own intake, headers, exhaust, forced induction, and tuning it the way I want to. I miss the smell of oil and gas and the primitive roar of the engine, air intake, and exhaust. I've seen the future of electric vehicles though, and I've committed to it and not looking back. I now have multiple EV's including an Energica motorcycle.

As for driving in winter conditions, I've driven light vehicles even with AWD in the Midwestern snow and heavy beats light for those conditions in my book. I would expect the heavy Rivian to perform quite well.

 

[SoCal Rob]

I don’t drive in winter conditions any more but I grew up in Pennsylvania and if I did still drive in winter conditions I think @graemebshaw may be concerned about OPD.

The way I picture the Rivian winter driving experience with the currently available modes (no snow or ice mode) and with OPD in either regen mode: you have to be exact in your accelerator positioning to emulate neutral. If you aren’t and you break traction then you’re relying on stability and traction control and I’d be curious to see how the systems deal with all four tires sliding on ice.

I think OP’s concern is that 1) OPD seems more likely to result in skidding/sliding* and 2) if I recall my physics properly, once you break traction and are sliding, a heavier object will take longer to stop/slow/regain traction than a lighter one, all else being equal.

I hope that people with more real-world OPD experience and physics knowledge will correct me if I’m wrong about this.

* Without OPD experience in winter conditions, I say this because of my prior traditional driving. Back in my winter driving days in a car with a manual transmission if I suddenly found myself on a stretch of road which was probably just wet but could be ice, I’d step on the clutch and very, Very, VERY gently apply the brake. If my speedometer suddenly dropped to 0 I figured I had no traction, I was on ice, and immediately released the brake and stayed on the clutch until I slowed down and then I’d repeat the process. This was 30 years ago before stability and traction control were common (probably not commercially available in anything in 1992 from what I recall) but you could duplicate this in an automatic transmission car by shifting to neutral. I don’t think this is possible with OPD as implemented in the Rivian so far.

edit: clarity

 

[graemebshaw]

As someone who's been a gearhead his entire life, I can tell you that my Tesla Model 3 Performance has been the car I enjoy driving the most. That said, I very much miss installing my own intake, headers, exhaust, forced induction, and tuning it the way I want to. I miss the smell of oil and gas and the primitive roar of the engine, air intake, and exhaust. I've seen the future of electric vehicles though, and I've committed to it and not looking back. I now have multiple EV's including an Energica motorcycle.

As for driving in winter conditions, I've driven light vehicles even with AWD in the Midwestern snow and heavy beats light for those conditions in my book. I would expect the heavy Rivian to perform quite well.

This is interesting, and kind of what I expected. It's not reason enough to be a luddite, and I will own an EV sooner rather than later, but it makes me slightly sad. Tell me, if someone offered you a brand new (but otherwise identical) Model 3 Performance as your current car, would you switch? Does working on the car or customizing it increase your attachment to the car? If your attachment is to the brand/model but not to the VIN specifically, it almost makes the case for a (future) subscription model...

 

[graemebshaw]

I don’t drive in winter conditions any more but I grew up in Pennsylvania and if I did still drive in winter conditions I think @graemebshaw may be concerned about OPD.

The way I picture the Rivian winter driving experience with the currently available modes (no snow or ice mode) and with OPD in either regen mode: you have to be exact in your accelerator positioning to emulate neutral. If you aren’t and you break traction then you’re relying on stability and traction control and I’d be curious to see how the systems deal with all four tires sliding on ice.

I think OP’s concern is that 1) OPD seems more likely to result in skidding/sliding* and 2) if I recall my physics properly, once you break traction and are sliding, a heavier object will take longer to stop/slow/regain traction than a lighter one, all else being equal.

I hope that people with more real-world OPD experience and physics knowledge will correct me if I’m wrong about this.

* Without OPD experience in winter conditions, I say this because of my prior traditional driving. Back in my winter driving days in a car with a manual transmission if I suddenly found myself on a stretch of road which was probably just wet but could be ice, I’d step on the clutch and very, Very, VERY gently apply the brake. If my speedometer suddenly dropped to 0 I figured I had no traction, I was on ice, and immediately released the brake and stayed on the clutch until I slowed down and then I’d repeat the process. This was 30 years ago before stability and traction control were common (probably not commercially available in anything in 1992 from what I recall) but you could duplicate this in an automatic transmission car by shifting to neutral. I don’t think this is possible with OPD as implemented in the Rivian so far.

edit: clarity

Thanks. This is exactly my concern, and you explained it more succinctly than I did. And btw, I used to employ almost exactly the same "test" method with my old manual cars.

 

[SRTConvert]

Until there is a snow / ice mode, and we can rely on the computers, driving with OPD will be a very different experience from ICE. We'll have some relearning to do. OPD allows a far more precise control of your exact speed and you can make incremental adjustments. There are no gear changes, changes in torque based on rpm, etc.

I'm guessing this will help avoid losing traction.

On the other hand you cannot coast and releasing the accelerator completely will cause traction loss in slippery conditions.

 

[Yossarian]

I can't speak to EV usage in snow and icy conditions, but have a lot of experience driving ICE vehicles in heavy snow and high winds.

We drive west from the Philly area to Utah every winter and have for quite a few years now.Nearly every year, we get detoured off of the interstate due to heavy snow overwhelming the plows. I wouldn't think of doing the drive in anything less than an AWD vehicle. I would think a true 4WD vehicle like the R1 quad-motor in which the power distribution can be precisely controlled, would be the ideal vehicle for snow travel.

Heavy snow can be tough to drive in, but the real issue is stopping. Most All-weather tires are fine in getting you moving, but not so much for stopping. For that you need snow tires. I switched to 3-peak tires, a while back and the difference is dramatic. I presently use Michelin ICE-X and have been very pleased with their performance. As mentioned earlier, many tires can provide acceptable traction to get moving, but the ICE-X are terrific. More importantly, they provide much needed traction for control and stopping.

A final word about driving in snow. My worst white-knuckle snow drive was I-80 in Wyoming one winter, on the way to JHMR. There was a fair amount of snowfall that day, perhaps 10 - 12 inches, but the plows removed most of it. Unfortunately, the wind was blowing at 25+ mph, and put a lot of that snow back on the highway, where passing traffic smashed it down, making for a very slick surface. The wind made things so much worse, not so much by blowing the snow, but by moving the car around on the slick surface. Even at 50 mph, it was difficult to maintain control. By contrast, the drive up and over Loveland Pass in near-blizzard conditions the year before was almost pleasant (actually it really sucked, just not as bad.)

A final thought about EV's and cold-weather. Very cold temps are what really give me pause in getting a Rivian. It's not usual for temps in the western mountains to drop very low and stay there for a while. This winter in Steamboat, we had a run of about 4 days in which temps were -20F or below every night. And at Big Sky a couple of years back, temps were -35 F one day and -28 F the next. How far an EV will go in those conditions is something that I really worry about.

 

[graemebshaw]

My worst white-knuckle snow drive was I-80 in Wyoming one winter, on the way to JHMR. There was a fair amount of snowfall that day, perhaps 10 - 12 inches, but the plows removed most of it. Unfortunately, the wind was blowing at 25+ mph, and put a lot of that snow back on the highway, where passing traffic smashed it down, making for a very slick surface. The wind made things so much worse, not so much by blowing the snow, but by moving the car around on the slick surface. Even at 50 mph, it was difficult to maintain control. By contrast, the drive up and over Loveland Pass in near-blizzard conditions the year before was almost pleasant (actually it really sucked, just not as bad.)

Yep. That was exactly what I described in my OP. Terrifying when your vehicle starts moving sideways when you are already moving forwards at 50mph+. And in low visibility. And with other cars around you.

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