What are the legal and financial issues involved with using non-approved adapter and it causes damage?

[Chris TX]

When @A2ZEV came in here and explained a lot of what they've done with OEMs and such, it made me confident in ordering one. My hope is to use it as a back up long term once I get the Rivian adapter, and that they will get OEM approval at some point.

I'd be curious to see which OEM they actually make them for. Their "OEM-Supplied adapter" could turn out to be one made by A2Z, but will probably be stamped with a unique OEM part number. Even if they might be mechanically and electrically identical, that part number and proof of ownership are what matters in court.

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[djsider2]

If there were no legal risks, at all, Rivian would not have bothered to put this in writing: https://rivian.com/support/article/can-i-use-a-third-party-nacs-dc-adapter. And similar warnings are published elsewhere within the Rivian-sphere. I don't have links and documents handy, but you and everyone else have the means to find them. I believe even Tesla has published similar warnings.

Action and consequences. They warned you. You go ahead and do it anyway because it suits you. Things go wrong. What do you think happens next?

Similarly, the no-smoking sign on the airplane is turned on. You go to the bathroom and smoke one anyway. What would happen next?

I just don't see, outside of whishful thinking, how anyone can see room for ambiguity. Unless you're a criminal defense lawyer (Breaking Bad reference)?

The ambiguity is whether this restriction on "automobile manufacturer only" adapters is a legal statement to make. It's akin to saying your ipad can only be charged with an Apple cable with an Apple adapter. We already know what the EU (and US will follow) will say if Apple ever tried to pull that move.

Also, is it legal for insurance companies to deny you a claim for damage if you violate this clause but have shown reasonable research was done, and that the new adapters were just as good. Similar to how an after market roof rail with cargo flies off and damages something, I'm sure insurance can't say "Your manufacturer never mentioned you can put that on top of your Prius" and deny you claims.

 

[brancky3]

IMO it’s 100% not worth the risk to use anything except for the OEM adapter. Sure it probably functions the same and it’s probably safe, but if something does go wrong you’re going to be on the hook for a $70k vehicle with no assistance.

 

[Gen(R3)Xer]

In case the *hit hits the fan when charging with the "Non-approved" adapters and it causes damage to my car, supercharger, or even other cars, who covers damage?

Is my car covered by my car's insurance?
Is the supercharger/fast charger's insurance going to cover it, like how vandalism is covered?

Just asking for a friend... =)

According to charging expert Tom Moloughney from State of Charge, any third-party CCS-to-NACS adapter should be fine as long as it’s UL certified. He’s already reviewed two adapters on his YouTube channel.

 

[NDIrish]

In case the *hit hits the fan when charging with the "Non-approved" adapters and it causes damage to my car, supercharger, or even other cars, who covers damage?

Is my car covered by my car's insurance?
Is the supercharger/fast charger's insurance going to cover it, like how vandalism is covered?

Just asking for a friend... =)

NOT A LAWYER

But there is the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act which in short says they can't void warranty for using 3rd party parts and services. So it becomes the normal legal responsibility "Would a REASONABLE PERSON expect that outcome".

So if the 3rd party part is marketed as compatible; you touch, feel, look at it and reasonably expect it to work... then I don't see any issue.

YES you may have to fight them IF something happens and PROVE all this. But that regulation was put in place to protect consumers from some really bad practices in the past.

If you drop and crack the "approved" one and still continue to use it, they will fight that also. You have to reasonably expect what you are doing will not cause harm; and course know that there is "inherent risk" in anything and you just have to make sure that you aren't adding to that; that is really all you have to worry about legally. (In my non-lawyer opinion)

Personally I wouldn't go with the cheapest thing on the market, but I also don't expect to use the adapter enough to warrant the crown jewel of adapters; I have a middle of the road one, that I have felt comfortable the 2 times this year I needed it. I will keep using it (if needed) until Rivian sends me theirs, and not worry one bit.

 

[Dark-Fx]

I have my big boy pants on, it was my decision to use the adapter, if by chance it causes any issues during my use it is on me. This is known as a calculated risk and I’m ok with it.

I think people are underestimating how fast things could go south if there's a temperature related failure in these connections. One of those yellow MAPP torches people use for pipe soldering are ~433 BTUs. 220kW electrical energy is ~750,000 BTUs.

 

[ddimit]

I think people are underestimating how fast things could go south if there's a temperature related failure in these connections. One of those yellow MAPP torches people use for pipe soldering are ~433 BTUs. 220kW electrical energy is ~750,000 BTUs.

per the third-party vendors, A2Z has specifically said there are two internal temp sensors that will cut power if triggered.

 

[R1Thor]

NOT A LAWYER

But there is the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act which in short says they can't void warranty for using 3rd party parts and services. So it becomes the normal legal responsibility "Would a REASONABLE PERSON expect that outcome".

So if the 3rd party part is marketed as compatible; you touch, feel, look at it and reasonably expect it to work... then I don't see any issue.

YES you may have to fight them IF something happens and PROVE all this. But that regulation was put in place to protect consumers from some really bad practices in the past.

If you drop and crack the "approved" one and still continue to use it, they will fight that also. You have to reasonably expect what you are doing will not cause harm; and course know that there is "inherent risk" in anything and you just have to make sure that you aren't adding to that; that is really all you have to worry about legally. (In my non-lawyer opinion)

Personally I wouldn't go with the cheapest thing on the market, but I also don't expect to use the adapter enough to warrant the crown jewel of adapters; I have a middle of the road one, that I have felt comfortable the 2 times this year I needed it. I will keep using it (if needed) until Rivian sends me theirs, and not worry one bit.

Edit: disclaimer to add: ALSO NOT A LAWYER, legal scholar, or expert in anything

I do not believe Magnuson-Moss applies here. And I'm a staunch supporter, advocate, and cite often: consumer protections.

Firstly, as has been mentioned in this thread, the UL certifications aren't ratified, yet. SO, no one is 'working to a published standard.' It's great that people like A2Z are working to the draft, but if it changes in the 11th hour, that's moot (and does happen--I used to work for a Fortune 500 connector company. I've spent weeks redoing Engineering work I thought was 'done' because the standards were updated before ratification to meet XYZ performance metrics). My personal PAUSE based on my work in connectors is how little time there's been to bring these to markets. Even with advanced lifecycle testing, these things should've spent a year in development. They're popping up in less than 6 months. At best they're using best practices and 'like' technology to develop. IT's a simple circuit, I'll give them that. And they CAN be OVER engineered.


BUT, now we're at the point of asking "can I use a 3rd party adapter with the gas station pump?"
I think you can spend all of 10 seconds thinking about that and come to the conclusion that'd be a giant risk (things that can be flammable...you don't mess with).

This isn't an aftermarket stereo or dice hanging from your mirror. This is a mechanism to carry a VERY HIGH amount of energy. Regardless of how 'simple' it is to connect circuit to circuit, any time there's another node/connection/joint/point that can be pivoted about in a circuit, you will increase resistance, period. I'm not an EE, and it's likely the calculation shows this to be minimal in this case. Circuit protection notwithstanding, things can go wrong. Does A2Z and Lectron test 100% EVERY thermal fuse? Probably not. Where are they acquiring them from? I bet somewhere in Asia. Is that the level of quality you're OK with?

As others have said--it's a personal choice at this point. I think it's irresponsible when the OEMs are decidedly saying "don't do it." But who cares what I think?

It's probably wholly irresponsible for anyone to be asking strangers on the internet questions about liability, to be honest...


AND back to OPs question: instead of asking us what we think Insurance will do, why not call your insurance company directly and ask them for their liability clause in this case? If they can point to a specific point in a document somewhere, you know you'll be covered. Takes the guessing out, right?

 

[SamDoe1]

I'm not going to fuck around and find out what the legal implications are. Not worth the headache and worry for me. Happy to wait for the real thing just like I did with the truck.

Other people have vastly different risk acceptance levels than I do though so go nuts.

 

[JamuJoe]

In case the *hit hits the fan when charging with the "Non-approved" adapters and it causes damage to my car, supercharger, or even other cars, who covers damage?

Is my car covered by my car's insurance?
Is the supercharger/fast charger's insurance going to cover it, like how vandalism is covered?

Just asking for a friend... =)

Any insurance agent should advise against using an adapter that the OEM has specifically warned against, as they have no incentive to expose themselves the risk. Patience is advisable.

 

[NDIrish]

I do not believe Magnuson-Moss applies here. And I'm a staunch supporter, advocate, and cite often: consumer protections.

Firstly, as has been mentioned in this thread, the UL certifications aren't ratified, yet. SO, no one is 'working to a published standard.' It's great that people like A2Z are working to the draft, but if it changes in the 11th hour, that's moot (and does happen--I used to work for a Fortune 500 connector company. I've spent weeks redoing Engineering work I thought was 'done' because the standards were updated before ratification to meet XYZ performance metrics). My personal PAUSE based on my work in connectors is how little time there's been to bring these to markets. Even with advanced lifecycle testing, these things should've spent a year in development. They're popping up in less than 6 months. At best they're using best practices and 'like' technology to develop. IT's a simple circuit, I'll give them that. And they CAN be OVER engineered.


BUT, now we're at the point of asking "can I use a 3rd party adapter with the gas station pump?"
I think you can spend all of 10 seconds thinking about that and come to the conclusion that'd be a giant risk (things that can be flammable...you don't mess with).

This isn't an aftermarket stereo or dice hanging from your mirror. This is a mechanism to carry a VERY HIGH amount of energy. Regardless of how 'simple' it is to connect circuit to circuit, any time there's another node/connection/joint/point that can be pivoted about in a circuit, you will increase resistance, period. I'm not an EE, and it's likely the calculation shows this to be minimal in this case. Circuit protection notwithstanding, things can go wrong. Does A2Z and Lectron test 100% EVERY thermal fuse? Probably not. Where are they acquiring them from? I bet somewhere in Asia. Is that the level of quality you're OK with?

As others have said--it's a personal choice at this point. I think it's irresponsible when the OEMs are decidedly saying "don't do it." But who cares what I think?

It's probably wholly irresponsible for anyone to be asking strangers on the internet questions about liability, to be honest...


AND back to OPs question: instead of asking us what we think Insurance will do, why not call your insurance company directly and ask them for their liability clause in this case? If they can point to a specific point in a document somewhere, you know you'll be covered. Takes the guessing out, right?

Super valid points! and definitely can tell you have put more thought into it than me, so thank you for taking the time to share, it does help to have multiple views on any new subject.

I will stand by the point that legally if a reasonable person would do it, you are typically covered. Being NEW tech probably lowers that bar... vs your example of the gas pump which has been around for most peoples lifetime, the bar is raised to what would be considered reasonable because people have more experience. In the reasonable person defense, you may be off the hook, and the insurance company will go after the maker of the unit; but the cheap makers will just disappear if it gets to that point after cashing in all their profit.

You made me think more and agree 100% Standards are super important and once they are published and out and things get stamped and consumers get more informed. That hopefully will kick out the companies just pumping out early junk that don't have to meet a standard. So go back to don't buy the cheapest, they are out to make a quick buck and probably never intend to spend the money to certify their products; it's an opportunistic marketing strategy not a long term businss..... the middle and high end ones are investing in growth; the high end are probably over engineered and will immediately apply and get certified, the middle of the pack may take a minute to get there but are at least planning to stay in business and put out a certified product.

If I implied I suggest people do what I will do, I rescind that... I just wanted to say what my opinion is. I think this is a good thread to help people see different views on the issue. So let your personal risk profile dictate your actions.

again thanks for your view, it did help me frame my thoughts, I totally forgot these adapters are not certified to a standard, I feel I am an above average informed consumer (not expert, not novice) and since the plug itself meets a NACS or CCS or J1772 standard, I extrapolated that to the adapter... which as you point out does not (which begs the question would a reasonable consumer make the same extrapolation I made)

Sidenote: I can't dock and undock my computer without restarting 80% of the time, and we've had laptop docks for decades.... so is there any hope!!!

take care

 

[R1Thor]

Sidenote: I can't dock and undock my computer without restarting 80% of the time, and we've had laptop docks for decades.... so is there any hope!!!

take care

That's valid too.
I have a Dell workstation with a Dell dock at work and have terrible daily experience.

I have an Anker USBC KVM port replicator at home that swims circles around it.

It's absolutely possible the aftermarket engineers better than the OEMs!

What'd REALLY be insightful is if someone did a full teardown on both (ideally someone with the technical prowess to evaluate the engineering-- both from a circuitry perspective to be able to understand thermal sinks, drains, and protection. Bonus points if they can demonstrate the thermal fuses 'tripping,' but odds are no one is going to have that level of power output at home), and compared the two like for like.

It's all risk analysis and risk tolerance.

BUT, it needn't be. If you're concerned, wait for the OEMs free adapter!

 

[R1 EVY]

This is known as a calculated risk

I think the OP is looking to take a calculated risk based on the information they can gather and the "wisdom of crowds".

In other words, the question is: "What are the risks I'm taking?" and not "Tell me why I shouldn't."

That distinction is important.

 

[ndmiller]

While the language between Rivian and Tesla's statements are not exactly the same, Tesla bans third party adapters on their network, while Rivian doesn't support or something like that.

Using Tesla network your on your own financially for damage to your and tesla equipment as you explicitly ignored their ban. From a Rivian side, my guess is they won't step up in any way either financially, but will probably fix your vehicle.

 

[SamDoe1]

That's valid too.
I have a Dell workstation with a Dell dock at work and have terrible daily experience.

I have an Anker USBC KVM port replicator at home that swims circles around it.

It's absolutely possible the aftermarket engineers better than the OEMs!

What'd REALLY be insightful is if someone did a full teardown on both (ideally someone with the technical prowess to evaluate the engineering-- both from a circuitry perspective to be able to understand thermal sinks, drains, and protection. Bonus points if they can demonstrate the thermal fuses 'tripping,' but odds are no one is going to have that level of power output at home), and compared the two like for like.

It's all risk analysis and risk tolerance.

BUT, it needn't be. If you're concerned, wait for the OEMs free adapter!

The difference here is that USB-C is an accepted standard that you can meet. There's no standard at this point for NACS to CCS adapters.

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