Rivian software Q&A w/ Wassym Bensaid (talks dashcam, bed camera, turn signal camera, etc.)

[Operator]

Hopefully Waze never gets integrated as the official nav. I know some people love Waze. In my experience, while the traffic notifications in Waze is cool, the nav directions randomly suck. I've had Waze do completely inexplicable things on multiple occasions i.e. exit an Interstate and get back on at the next interchange with absolutely no traffic impediments. Route me in a full 10 mile square instead of 1 mile direct. Never had these issues with Apple or Google Maps......

I concur. Waze will have you take a bicycle trail or powerline right of way trail to shave off 25 seconds. It's just got weird directions that I'm not a fan of.

Sponsored

 

[Operator]

At a Rivian stories event. Wassym Bensaid (VP of Software Development) is here and giving a q&a.

Here’s some of the takeaways…take everything with a grain of salt

-dashcam available by end of April (basically the next update)

-bed camera will be enabled for use and available for things like towing. this is planned to be part of a larger “towing update” that will include things like trailer profiles, etc. Eta for that update is summer

-turn signal cameras on driver display in development…eta summer

-navigation improvements are constantly being worked on, looked into multiple integration options including waze but waze doesn’t have an open api.

-video and audio entertainment being worked on. The long pole for video is developing digital rights management in the software. No eta given.

-as more features get added app and ui are getting cluttered so they are going through a re-design.

-apple watch as a key is actively being looked into/tested and is on the roadmap

edit: replied directly to some questions so those are further down the thread. there was a lot more discussed, but i only included stuff that had concrete timelines because most of what ppl ask is on the road map (i did include info about the navigation and entertainment since he provided some interesting context/insight on their respective challenges and why it's taking a minute to bring that to customers).

Is there a way to request a feature? I would pay money to not have my vehicle stop and put itself in park when in reverse and my butt comes off the seat. This forces me to use the cameras now and the field of view on the cameras isn't great. To me it's more of a safety issue by making me rely on the cameras instead of looking over my shoulder.

 

[Autolycus]

The last time I used Waze was because I was parking near Mercedes Benz Stadium downtown -- normally take MARTA -- and the stadium's website was very insistent (because of an advertising deal, I'm sure) that Waze had the absolute bestest of navigation for game day. I hadn't used it in a while and thought I would give it a try again. Got downtown, traffic sucked. It put me onto a couple random side streets that I know were slower because I saw the cars that were behind me at the highway offramp making a turn several minutes before I was able to get onto the same street. That was annoying, but that wasn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem was that Waze had taken me this slower way because it wanted me to use a road that literally had no pavement and had been closed for months. How did Waze not know the street was closed?!

 

[Zoidz]

There's a lot of powerful imagination at work in this thread with regard to the value of undifferentiated vehicle/infotainment telemetry.

Let's all recap together. Data is valuable in a couple of ways:

1. When it is relatively unique and has novel applications (such as aggregate phone data that can be used to track population movements at scale, or to identify the behavior of individuals or cohorts — for example, property developers might buy aggregate location data to understand seasonal population trends in a potential new housing development or franchise location)
2. When it can be used to target/personalize ads (generally this is most valuable in a first party context, e.g. Facebook using their data on you to personalize the ads they serve to you, rather than selling anyone your data; but lower-quality brokers like e.g. rewards clubs or magazine subscribers might sell data in aggregate. The latter is much less valuable.)
3. For product development (diagnostics & telemetry for identifying issues, tracking engagement on features, etc.) — In practice this is only valuable to the first party (product developer).

Rivian certainly has #3, and their privacy policy reflects that.

For #1 and #2, there's no clear hypothesis as to what differentiated data they have which would be valuable, to whom, and why that would enjoin them from deploying CarPlay. Again, it's also worth mentioning that their privacy policy expressly prohibits them from selling customer data.

But privacy policy aside -

1. Rivian's data is undifferentiated. Their fleet will always be smaller than the datasets offered by larger and less principled vendors, such as telcos and mobile apps; it's too niche to be representative (e.g., you wouldn't use Rivian data for traffic or population trend monitoring), but too diverse to be useful for targeting (e.g., it doesn't represent specific cohorts besides "Rivian Owners.")
2. Rivian's data is uninteresting. Again, it's basically location/route data (covered much better by telcos, mapping apps, etc.); infotainment interactions (listening habits and HVAC interactions? anyone who would buy such things likely has better first party data anyway, and if not, the data is certainly low-value).
3. CarPlay isn't really a factor. Sure, Rivian loses visibility into whatever you do in CarPlay, but it's unlikely that what you do in CarPlay is very interesting, and the juice isn't worth the squeeze from a regulatory/compliance perspective.

The remaining argument is that Rivian wants you to subscribe to Rivian offerings in exchange for feature enhancements, which is certainly true. Again, I don't think this enjoins CarPlay (hell, I bet most of the people here would pay a subscription to unlock CarPlay) - they could easily offer their subscription features through a Rivian app in CarPlay.

But that cedes control of the user experience to a third party who can place arbitrary restrictions on capabilities, add new complexity (servicing, security, etc.) to Rivian's infotainment (which can never depend on CarPlay/AA), and provide a less integrated end to end experience.

The instinct to "follow the money" is surely right. But there's a less complicated theory: "Follow the money" points to (at least in Rivian's mind) "we can sell more units / charge more money if we control the experience end to end, rather than outsourcing our infotainment experience to a commodity provider."

Tesla has certainly pulled that off which more or less the exact same approach and justifications; time will tell for Rivian, but I'm optimistic.

I think you are overlooking or undervaluing a detail of the privacy agreement, and therefore some data that respresents potential direct and indirect revenue opportunity to Rivian.

The policy specifically discloses that they can use non-personal data in any way they want to:

"Non-Personal Data. Our processing of data that cannot be linked to an identifiable or identified individual (i.e., non-personal-data). Rivian reserves the right to process this data for any legitimate business purpose."

Some examples of this, why it is valuable, and how CarPlay integration would work against Rivian:

- I have no idea if this is a fact regarding Rivian, but I do know that other subscription services do things like this: Rivian might be getting a small portion/kickback of subscription fees from streaming service(s) they integrate, but to claim that fee Rivian needs to provide proof that it was being streamed to a Rivian. The privacy agreement allows them to validate with the streaming service that music was streamed to X Rivian vehicles totalling X hours each month without personally identifying the individual to the streamer, and receive a kickback payment. With CarPlay, they lose that revenue possibility.

- If you are using Apple Maps instead of Rivian nav, they lose the search data which can be sold as statistical data about Rivian owners. Yes, Rivian location services still know where you went, but they don't know why or what, or if, you searched to get there - the context of the location data is important. This data is valuable to third parties who wish to target the demographic profile of Rivian owners. Example - Through aggragate nav search term data, they know that Rivian owners go to "outfitter" shops in person X times a month, and that Cabela's searches are 3 times greater than any other term. That data is bought by a marketing firm who in turn uses it to justify an advertising campaign by Cabela's/Bass Pro to pay for promoted ads on Google when somone searches on "Rivian".

There are plenty more examples but hopefully this makes sense. Rivian has a trove of data from Nav search terms that, when combined with non personally identifiable Rivian owner data, has value. Also keep in mind that this is forward looking - some of the data might not be valuable today, but in 5 years may be extremely valuable as a large, long term dataset.

Google the term "Monetize vehicle data" and you'll begin to see how inportant owning ALL the data is to Rivian and why RJ wants the "end to end" control. As a starter, read this article (excerpt below), and consider it specifically from a Rivian CEO perspective. Data is money, and the more you collect and totally own, the more valuable it is. If you "give it away" via CarPlay/AA integration, you lose.

"many OEMs are now rethinking their external data monetisation strategies. Some manufacturers are even going so far as to stop exchanging data with other parties altogether. Instead, they want to tap into the value of the data itself. To do this, they are turning the focus inward to fully exploit the potential of connected vehicle data for their own new business models, such as usage-based insurance, fleet management and other proprietary digital services, both inside and outside the vehicles."

 

[Ctenophore]

…-dashcam available by end of April (basically the next update)

…-turn signal cameras on driver display in development…eta summer…

Hopefully they add some quality of life improvements for data management like a status indicator for data transfer to the external drive and support for other formats.

I imagine the camera activation for turn signals will apply to the right signal only unless they plan on adding the video stream to the driver instrument panel for the left camera.

 

[TimmyGA]

Thanks so much for taking the time to shar. Wish they could get some of the simple stuff right like door locks….

 

[Guy]

Hopefully they add some quality of life improvements for data management like a status indicator for data transfer to the external drive and support for other formats.

I imagine the camera activation for turn signals will apply to the right signal only unless they plan on adding the video stream to the driver instrument panel for the left camera.

I would assume, like with other vehicles that both the left and right camera are shown in the instrument panel directly in front of the driver. That screen needs to be more customizable too.

 

[swhme]

Hopefully Waze never gets integrated as the official nav. I know some people love Waze. In my experience, while the traffic notifications in Waze is cool, the nav directions randomly suck. I've had Waze do completely inexplicable things on multiple occasions i.e. exit an Interstate and get back on at the next interchange with absolutely no traffic impediments. Route me in a full 10 mile square instead of 1 mile direct. Never had these issues with Apple or Google Maps......

Yes, this. I drove from Maine to New Mexico last weekend (in an ICE car), and I tried using Waze as I like the police and traffic features, but some of the routing was insane. Sometimes wanting me to get onto the frontage road for 5 miles (when there was absolutely no traffic on the highway), other times wanting to route me 100+ miles out of the way.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Is there a way to request a feature? I would pay money to not have my vehicle stop and put itself in park when in reverse and my butt comes off the seat. This forces me to use the cameras now and the field of view on the cameras isn't great. To me it's more of a safety issue by making me rely on the cameras instead of looking over my shoulder.

If you use your other foot on the brake pedal it'll give you finer control over acceleration and stop the auto-park from happening.

 

[Taco Corp]

You're right and you're wrong.

You're right that Rivian already has or can have all the data they need. They make the freaking vehicle. Of course they can capture all the data they need. It is a computer on wheels! The idea that Rivian would somehow lose out on any data if they allow CarPlay makes no sense. They also have an app and all of the data that comes with that and your phone. They have the means to collect far more data than Apple or Android could via CarPlay and AA. I don't understand the comments about "Rivian won't allow CarPlay because they want your data". That's true and not true. Rivian already has your data, regardless of Carplay.

I think you're wrong in that it isn't about data and is purely about controlling the User Experience. It's about money first. Maximizing money while also trying to balance the User Experience. The only reason they are trying to keep a high level user experience is to maximize revenue/profit.

I'm pretty sure the real reason they won't allow CarPlay is because right now without CarPlay, the only source of data is through Rivian. They have a monopoly on all Rivian data. If someone wants that data, they have to purchase it from Rivian. If Rivian adds CarPlay or AA, now that same (or very similar) data is available for purchase from Apple and Google. Then, all three will be competing with each other trying to sell that data and dive down the price.
As long as Rivian is the sole provider/source of the data, they keep their monopoly and can charge whatever they want for the data, and also capture 100% of the market for the data.

Plus, there is the whole Amazon thing that I'm sure does play into this conversation at some level....

One key thing missing here, as things currently stand you'll have to pay Rivian some amount of $ for access to streaming via the onboard LTE. If they enable CP/AA theres no incentive for anyone to pay for that connectivity.

 

[Dark-Fx]

One key thing missing here, as things currently stand you'll have to pay Rivian some amount of $ for access to streaming via the onboard LTE. If they enable CP/AA theres no incentive for anyone to pay for that connectivity.

Right now the vehicles seem to work just fine connected to a wifi hotspot. Which can be a little cumbersome but it will avoid needing to pay for another connection for the folks who like to depend on their phone.

 

[teddyang]

updated the original post with a link to the rivian official posting about the event!

https://stories.rivian.com/rivian-stories-meetup-venice-hub

 

[Babbuino]

I wish they add a manual preconditioning button. I don't always use the Rivian Nav...

 

[Brewbud]

One thing I would love is to have the camera button pinned to the main bottom bar or top. The amount of times I need to be able to quickly select it either when parking or maneuvering in a tight area and need the camera to reference is almost daily. Having to keep it as the last selected extra app is annoying. Or just give us the ability to edit the pinned "apps" at the bottom. Also, would like to see a "this trip" break down with, total time, miles, current energy use, and overall energy used.

This would be great. It would be even better if the user could just drag certain buttons to the bottom or top bars. My 2020 Ram lets me do this. I was able to drag the forward/surround camera button down to the bar. It was a 3 button sequence before I did that. I would like my garage and gate opener buttons to be single press on the top bar. Cameras on the bottom.....etc.

 

[zymolysis]

One thing I would love is to have the camera button pinned to the main bottom bar or top. The amount of times I need to be able to quickly select it either when parking or maneuvering in a tight area and need the camera to reference is almost daily. Having to keep it as the last selected extra app is annoying. Or just give us the ability to edit the pinned "apps" at the bottom. Also, would like to see a "this trip" break down with, total time, miles, current energy use, and overall energy used.

"...have the camera button pinned to the main bottom bar "
This.
When I pull into a parking space, and want to check the cameras to ensure that I am aligned within the parking space lines (or any of the other things I might check for), and have to stop, and hunt for the camera icon - so stupid and frustrating.

Sponsored