Ready to go.... install my port for charging in garage

[JeremyP]

I'm in the process of adding a subpanel to power mini-splits and a heat pump hot water heater, and I've been debating if I should just add another circuit to the garage for charging. I have a 14-50 plug already for welding and our i3 but it would be nice to be able to take advantage of the faster charge rate.

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[DucRider]

I see there are adaptors 10-50 to 14-50 out there. Curious if EVs will accept a charge if an adaptor is being used in this situation. I’m mostly thinking if I go to the in-laws and want to plug in at their shed. I’m guessing it’s the older standard

The 10-50 will have two hots and a neutral - with no ground. Appliances that used this were supposed to be frame grounded.

Some EVSEs and some vehicles may be OK with the neutral functioning as a ground, but it will be hit and miss. It depends somewhat on the rest of the circuit, if it is on a subpanel, etc.

The Rivian EVSE can be hardwired, and this may be the best choice in this circumstance. It shouldn't be too hard to move the neutral to the ground bus. You could also convert to a more current 6-50 when doing this as it is what is used today in purely 240V applications (many EVSEs can be ordered with a 6-50P).

But, your electrician may find some things that warrant a new circuit such as aluminum wiring. This was still common on appliance circuits long after other uses were discontinued.

 

[ajdelange]

I will hire an electrician when the time is right. I will need one to come in and put the wall charger up as well.

I can't really tell what you have there and it doesn't really matter. It is very probably two hots and earth (Edit: or can be easily converted to that) and that's all you really need.

That actually might work for a wall charger, many of them only use 3 wires.

The plug in types only use the two hots and earth also. If there are three wires going back to the panel the electrician can put in either a plugable unit or a hard wired one but of course the receptacle will have to be changed to match whatever plug the unit uses.

Only problem I can think of is there may be a code problem installing a 14-50R (what most of the plug in types use) without neutral even though for the intended use the neural may never be used. The premise would be that someone (say someone who buys your house) could at a future date plug something that requires the neutral into that outlet. A workaround might be to simply have the electrician remove the plug wire and feed the box from the wires in the wall.

 

[Laurent]

Wallbox 48A charger ready to go. It's nice and compact. Only thing missing is the R1S...

 

[flabyboy]

Just watch lead times on that. As I said in my original post, the from the date I accepted the quote until install was 14 weeks. Electricians are super busy right now.

I put my reservation in with Rivian 3 weeks ago. It should be okay ?

 

[flabyboy]

The 10-50 will have two hots and a neutral - with no ground. Appliances that used this were supposed to be frame grounded.

Some EVSEs and some vehicles may be OK with the neutral functioning as a ground, but it will be hit and miss. It depends somewhat on the rest of the circuit, if it is on a subpanel, etc.

The Rivian EVSE can be hardwired, and this may be the best choice in this circumstance. It shouldn't be too hard to move the neutral to the ground bus. You could also convert to a more current 6-50 when doing this as it is what is used today in purely 240V applications (many EVSEs can be ordered with a 6-50P).

But, your electrician may find some things that warrant a new circuit such as aluminum wiring. This was still common on appliance circuits long after other uses were discontinued.

The house is 20 years old. Hopefully don’t find anything too sketchy. I plan on putting in the Rivian wall charger and having this one replaced as we will most likely have two EVs in the next few years

 

[Jarico75]

I see there are adaptors 10-50 to 14-50 out there. Curious if EVs will accept a charge if an adaptor is being used in this situation. I’m mostly thinking if I go to the in-laws and want to plug in at their shed. I’m guessing it’s the older standard

The main difference between 10-50 and 14-50 is a dedicated ground wire. In the 10-50 there are only 3 wires. 2 "hot" wires and a "common" or "neutral" wire. The 14-50 has the same 3 wires as 10-50 with the addition of a bare ground wire. Both will charge the car. One is considered safer than the other because the breaker will "trip" more readily in the event of an overload or short.

This is my laymen's understanding of the difference.

 

[flabyboy]

The main difference between 10-50 and 14-50 is a dedicated ground wire. In the 10-50 there are only 3 wires. 2 "hot" wires and a "common" or "neutral" wire. The 14-50 has the same 3 wires as 10-50 with the addition of a bare ground wire. Both will charge the car. One is considered safer than the other because the breaker will "trip" more readily in the event of an overload or short.

This is my laymen's understanding of the difference.

I read on a Tesla forum that it won’t charge without a ground. That’s why I asked

 

[ajdelange]

The 10-50 will have two hots and a neutral - with no ground. Appliances that used this were supposed to be frame grounded.

There will be two hots and another wire. After looking at videos, manuals and explanations for about an hour I'll be damned if I can figure out whether that wire was connected to the neutral bus or the ground bus in the panel and I think it was sometimes done one way and sometimes another. It didn't matter for the operation of the dryers because the two buses are connected at the service entrance. And it didn't matter as far as the safety of the appliance as it wasn't safe in either case but the hazard was deemed minor and the three wire connection is still, AFAIK, grandfathered in though prohibited in new construction. What is important for EVSE safety is that the third wire be connected to the earth (ground bus) in the panel. If it is not have the electrician move it there and put a bit of green tape or nail polish on the end at the EVSE.

Some EVSEs and some vehicles may be OK with the neutral functioning as a ground, but it will be hit and miss. It depends somewhat on the rest of the circuit, if it is on a subpanel, etc.

This is sort of moot as the third wire must be connected to the earth bus in a proper installation.

The Rivian EVSE can be hardwired, and this may be the best choice in this circumstance.

It may be the only route unless you have earth AND neutral at the box. If the outlet is wired with two insulated conductors and a bare wire then you can't put a 14-50R in it because there is no neutral. As I said in an earlier post I don't think an inspector would like that. If there are three insulated conductors in the cable and if the cable is run in conduit or BX then the conduit or BX armor can be used as an earth source.

You could also convert to a more current 6-50 when doing this as it is what is used today in purely 240V applications (many EVSEs can be ordered with a 6-50P).

That should be OK too.

But, your electrician may find some things that warrant a new circuit such as aluminum wiring. This was still common on appliance circuits long after other uses were discontinued.

As always, consult with a good electrician when undertaking a project like this.

 

[ajdelange]

I read on a Tesla forum that it won’t charge without a ground. That’s why I asked

It won't. There must be a ground. As neutral is connected to ground that would dupe the box/car into thinking there is a legitimate ground when there isn't. Unless there is some clever way to tell which is which and I can't off hand think of one.

 

[Gearhead500]

As a someone who does tons of electrical work (residential to industrial) and my company sold 1000’s of feet of cable to Rivian installed in their factory…. Call an electrician!!!
Do not listen to online if you have questions and are tinkering with an electrical outlet in your home. While I may post adding a panel is easy, I don’t recommend it if you can’t handle a 3 way junction box.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[flabyboy]

As a someone who does tons of electrical work (residential to industrial) and my company sold 1000’s of feet of cable to Rivian installed in their factory…. Call an electrician!!!
Do not listen to online if you have questions and are tinkering with an electrical outlet in your home. While I may post adding a panel is easy, I don’t recommend it if you can’t handle a 3 way junction box.
Just my 2 cents.

Yep certainly plan on doing just that. That being said. My questions on here got me some information that will make me more informed when I speak with them. ?

 

[Gearhead500]

Yep certainly plan on doing just that. That being said. My questions on here got me some information that will make me more informed when I speak with them. ?

Good to hear. I search and learn new things online too. ? . Just be safe my fellow Riviots!

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

It won't. There must be a ground. As neutral is connected to ground that would dupe the box/car into thinking there is a legitimate ground when there isn't. Unless there is some clever way to tell which is which and I can't off hand think of one.

IIRC, it's against NEC to bond ground and neutral at any point outside of the main load center. Even sub-panels must keep their ground and neutral separate.

 

[Jamuso]

I have a quick question about this. The R1T will be our 1st EV. I have currently preordered the Rivian charger and was thinking I'd coordinate the install as part of the delivery process. Am I making a mistake? if yes - what would be a recommended path to take? thanks for your input.

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