I hope Rivian can eventually target more middle class consumers

Trandall

Member
First Name
Travis
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Messages
15
Reaction score
12
Location
Upstate NY
First Name
Travis
Vehicles
Subaru Ascent, Honda Accord hybrid
Occupation
Construction Management
Looking at Pew research #'s for middle class is household income of $52,280-$117,750. I personally feel these values are to low, considering in much of the U.S. a maried couple working full time for minimum wage would earn nearly the low end figure. I don't believe Rivian should design autos to sell brand new to minimum wage earners and if you are in the upper half of "middle class" I believe they are within reach, especially considering fed. and state incentives for U.S. costomers.
I agree, however, that removing bells and whistles (level 3 driving, 4 motors, large touch displays etc.) as standard equipment would make them more attainable for the median income of $78,500 for U.S. in 2020.





Advertisement

 

photontorque

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
58
Reaction score
96
Location
Colorado
Vehicles
2004 Old Reliable
I'm also very excited about a lower-cost Rivian.

We are pinching pennies to get the R1S, and while we'll enjoy the benefits an SUV provides, we aren't by default large-car people.

Hoping the follow-on R2R will be a lower-cost option than the R1S/T while still offering a lot of benefits of the Rivian design in the market segment currently dominated by Subaru wagons:

https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...ver-wagon-details-specs-rumored.529/post-9923

It seems that -- if the same skateboard platform is used for the R2R, even if it is a smaller total set of battery cells -- the reduced drag of a lower-profile vehicle would make the R2R range better than the R1S/T, and put the 400 mi nominal (~320 mi practical?) range closer in reach.

Maybe Rivian takes out a motor or two for the R2R? Seems like even a two-motor vehicle could do some nifty things an ICE could not.

A long-range EV wagon that would kick butt in snow and offer excellent off-road performance for fireroads and accessing backcountry trails? And is $20k less than the R1S/T? That would be FANTASTIC.
 

emoore

New Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2020
Messages
2
Reaction score
1
Location
Colorado
Vehicles
2011 VW GTI; 2000 4Runner
Looking at Pew research #'s for middle class is household income of $52,280-$117,750. I personally feel these values are to low, considering in much of the U.S. a maried couple working full time for minimum wage would earn nearly the low end figure. I don't believe Rivian should design autos to sell brand new to minimum wage earners and if you are in the upper half of "middle class" I believe they are within reach, especially considering fed. and state incentives for U.S. costomers.
I agree, however, that removing bells and whistles (level 3 driving, 4 motors, large touch displays etc.) as standard equipment would make them more attainable for the median income of $78,500 for U.S. in 2020.
I'd have to disagree. Federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. That's only $15k a year. Some cities are higher but the cost of living is much higher. And I would argue that a household making $115k a year probably won't be able to afford a $70k+ car. If Rivian had a $40-50k car then maybe the higher end of the middle class could afford one.
 

jjwolf120

Well-Known Member
First Name
John
Joined
Feb 25, 2020
Messages
277
Reaction score
261
Location
Arcadia
First Name
John
Vehicles
Toyota Highlander Hybrid
Occupation
TPA
Federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour.
The minimum wage in many states is higher.
And I would argue that a household making $115k a year probably won't be able to afford a $70k+ car.
This depends on how they spend their money. It isn't very hard to afford 70k car if you make 115k a year, but you have to not be spending it on a bunch of other stuff.
 

azbill

Well-Known Member
First Name
Bill
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
320
Reaction score
230
Location
Arizona
First Name
Bill
Vehicles
GMC Sierra, Bolt, Sky
Occupation
Engineer
The minimum wage in many states is higher.

This depends on how they spend their money. It isn't very hard to afford 70k car if you make 115k a year, but you have to not be spending it on a bunch of other stuff.
Back in 2013, when I bought a Volt and got my first $7500 tax credit, I found an article that indicated the typical EV buyer had a household income of $175K. Minimum wage earners, even if it is a couple, cannot afford any brand new vehicle. I have some friends and relatives that are at the lower income ends, and they have never owned a new vehicle in their entire life, let alone an electric vehicle.

There are some new el-cheapo Chinese EVs coming out, but personally, I will never purchase a car made in China, nor will I purchase an EV with a battery made in China.
 

EVJay

Active Member
First Name
Jay
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
25
Reaction score
34
Location
Texas
First Name
Jay
Vehicles
2011 Honda Pilot, 2012 Hyundai Veloster, 2019 Infinity Q50 Luxe, 2020 Tesla Model 3
Occupation
Sales
For me to make the electric switch I would want 400+ range. My current vehicle has a 330 mile range on a tank of gas. I would want 400+ due to the time required for charging along with weather/towing range reduction and battery degradation. That puts me at about 90k for a R1T.

I configured an F150 hybrid how I would want it for 60k.
A new Bronco 53k.

If I wanted an adventure vehicle I could pick either of those two and buy about 200,000 miles worth of gas to be equal in price to an R1T.

If I could get a R1T with 400+ miles of range for around 70k that would be worth it in mind. At the current pricing its a little expensive for what you get. I would imagine other middle class consumers might have similar thoughts.

I appreciate your take on this. I will say, as a current EV owner, I have had the discussion with numerous ICE owners. It comes down to your driving habits. If a 330 mile range ICE car is good enough for you, then why wouldn't a 330 mile EV be? When I used to stop for fuel in my ICE, I'd pull in to the pump, start the pump, run inside to use the restroom, grab a drink and snack, maybe look at the cheesy roadside merchandise that is for sale and then go back out to my car, top it off and settle in and drive off. That took about 10-15 min. With my EV, same process with maybe an additional 5 min of sitting in the car reading email or skimming text messages. Then on my way. And this process only takes place for longer road trips, so I'm not really in a hurry. MAIN difference, my $55 tank of gas now = $4 in charge fees and about 5 extra min of my time. For my day to day driving habits, with 70 mile round trip to and from work, I charge at home and never have any issues with range. In fact, I feel comfortable enough now where a 250-300 range vehicle would be sufficient from my personal driving habits.

The Rivian Explorer package will be under $70K with a 300+ mile range. While this is still a steep price, if evaluating the Ford F-150 and Bronco in the 50-60K price point, I'm not sure you are that far off in price. And with 200K in gas expenses, my calculation puts you in the 15-25K expense on fuel depending on where in the country you live. And don't forget the $7500 tax credit on the Rivian.

I agree, a lower cost model, like Tesla eventually did, is in the distant future for Rivian, but this was not their intent going into the design of the R1T and R1S. Similar to Mercedes and BMW etc...at some point they started offering more middle class consumer friendly models.

As far as towing, weather, battery degradation - that is a concern. If you are pulling horse trailers daily or on the road pulling an RV or boat every weekend, this might be worth a serious comparison. In regards to battery degradation, one might argue the same for engine degradation - I know I spent my fair share on engine maintenance and repairs over the years on multiple cars. Slight battery degradation over the next 10 years is a minimal concern for me.

Everyone has their reason why they would or would not go EV or spend more on an EV than an ICE vehicle, and I think they are all valid arguments. My personal experience is it has actually been a more enjoyable ownership experience than any of the other 11 cars I have ever owned.
 

EVJay

Active Member
First Name
Jay
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
25
Reaction score
34
Location
Texas
First Name
Jay
Vehicles
2011 Honda Pilot, 2012 Hyundai Veloster, 2019 Infinity Q50 Luxe, 2020 Tesla Model 3
Occupation
Sales
Auto manufacturers can get away with these increasing prices on vehicles since banks are offering 84 month loans, which is insanity. As long as people are taking out such loans, the auto manufacturers will continue to increase prices. :(

I think there are two different conversations to be had based on your statement. There are still plenty of "affordable" cars on the market, so I don't think it purely manufacturers just raising prices, the market supports the increase in vehicle costs. Supply/demand. Same with housing and any other major consumer purchase. The same could be said about mortgage companies then.
I looked at a 1964 corvette at an auto show, full ground up restoration. They wanted 120K for it. The original window sticker accompanied it. Total price, with the extra accessories (air conditioning) - $6,700. Can't touch a Corvette for $6700 now!

1. Car prices are set by market demand. As long as people want to pay and can pay, prices will always increase, however, Rivian is a new to market "luxury" adventure vehicle. There isn't anything else like it currently. No different than if Jaguar came out with a new model that offered features that didn't exist, they have the luxury of setting the market.

2. Banks and loans - cash, 12, 24, 36, 48. 60, 72, 84 - who cares what the finance term is for the consumer? I personally don't believe this has any affect on the price of the vehicle. Consumer financing offers are currently all over the place including 0% for 72 months...regardless of my ability to pay the vehicle off sooner, I would take a 0% interest loan all day.

However, if you take out a 75K loan and you can get 1.9% financing for 60 months, assuming you have excellent credit, your payments are going to be roughly $1,310 a month and a total payoff of $79K

If you take out that same loan and secure 2.9% for 84 months your payments will be roughly $990 a month and a total payoff of 83K

That is a difference of $320 a month and 4K over the life of the loan. I'm taking that $320 and investing it. That is almost 27K invested plus gains, which conservatively speaking could be 6% annually, minus the additional 4K in interest I paid on the vehicle - that's a win all day in my book and well worth the longer term at a slightly higher rate.
 

DucRider

Well-Known Member
First Name
Gary
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
624
Reaction score
710
Location
rRegon
First Name
Gary
Vehicles
Clarity Electric
That is a difference of $320 a month and 4K over the life of the loan. I'm taking that $320 and investing it. That is almost 27K invested plus gains, which conservatively speaking could be 6% annually, minus the additional 4K in interest I paid on the vehicle - that's a win all day in my book and well worth the longer term at a slightly higher rate.
I'm in a different camp and of a different philosophy. If you can't pay cash for a vehicle, you can't afford it.
The last car we financed was in 1985.

I guess peoples definition of "conservative" differs. Money market accounts and CDs are all well under 1% (usually .5% to .65%). Yes, the market does allow for bigger gains, but what I would consider conservative with a guaranteed return does not. My TSLA has done quite well and a chunk of that will go towards my Rivian.
 

Coast2Coast

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mark
Joined
Feb 17, 2020
Messages
395
Reaction score
459
Location
Santa Cruz, Ca./Odawara, Jpn
First Name
Mark
Vehicles
1981 Volvo wagon; 2006 Tacoma SR5; 2009 Toyota Prius
In the spirit of this thread - Rivian eventually targeting more middle class consumers - yes, it will happen and in three obvious ways.

1. Battery prices fall. The largest single contributor to today's higher costs are batteries, but the good news is that battery prices are falling and fairly quickly, at @10%/year. And new battery chemistries are on the horizon that may drop costs even more.

2. Smaller size and lesser content. Today's Rivians have four motors, air and kinetic hydraulic suspension, full undercarriage protection, and they're large - 3 row SUVs and crew cab trucks. Smaller sized Rivians with less drivetrain, suspension and interior content will be less expensive.

3. Economies of scale. Costs fall as a function of volume. The more you produce, the more costs fall not only as a function of volume but also as a result of learning. The two, economies of scale and learning, are not directly correlated, however, so costs should drop even more as volume increases.

So, $50K Rivians will appear in 3 years. But they'll be smaller and less capable, on and off road. They will still be more expensive than the average cost of a vehicle in N. America, which was $38K last year. That figure amalgamates the costs of all brands and all vehicles - sedans, CUVs, SUVs and pickup trucks - so it's a bit deceiving.

Rivians will always cost more than the average vehicle because they will always be more capable, with greater content, and produced in smaller volumes. Rivian is not targeting the mass market. Even after a dozen years of rapid growth, Tesla finally produced just shy of 500,000 vehicles in 2020. Mercedes Benz and BMW, by contrast, produce over 2 million vehicles a year.

So, yes, Rivian will eventually be targeting more middle class consumers, but I doubt Rivians will ever be priced at the industry average: $38k/vehicle. However, we'll probably see $48-50K new, lesser Rivians, R2Xs, and used R1S/Ts in 2024-25.
 

EVJay

Active Member
First Name
Jay
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
25
Reaction score
34
Location
Texas
First Name
Jay
Vehicles
2011 Honda Pilot, 2012 Hyundai Veloster, 2019 Infinity Q50 Luxe, 2020 Tesla Model 3
Occupation
Sales
I'm in a different camp and of a different philosophy. If you can't pay cash for a vehicle, you can't afford it.
The last car we financed was in 1985.

I guess peoples definition of "conservative" differs. Money market accounts and CDs are all well under 1% (usually .5% to .65%). Yes, the market does allow for bigger gains, but what I would consider conservative with a guaranteed return does not. My TSLA has done quite well and a chunk of that will go towards my Rivian.
That is great that you can pay cash for your vehicles and I would say you are in a minority. While I could tap my assets, I don't think using "working" money is best for my longterm strategy. My investments are in index funds and a mix of common stocks, commodities and ETFs. 6% is extremely conservative considering my typical returns. My TSLA stock has done well also, but if/when I sell off, those funds will be reinvested, not cashed out to purchase a depreciating item.

Like you said, everyone has a different philosophy and approach. I don't think either way is right or wrong, it just comes down to what is best for each individual.
 

Eager2own

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dan
Joined
Nov 16, 2020
Messages
51
Reaction score
178
Location
Texas
First Name
Dan
Vehicles
Porsche Panamera S e-Hybrid
Like you said, everyone has a different philosophy and approach. I don't think either way is right or wrong, it just comes down to what is best for each individual.
Wrong!!
The internet is primarily intended for the purpose of insisting what is best for others.... and, of course, cat videos.
 

skyote

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Messages
1,309
Reaction score
1,618
Location
Austin, TX
Vehicles
Jeeps, 2500HD Duramax, R1S Preorder (Dec 2018)
On a related note...

I know it's risky since it's not a done/announced deal, but did anyone else get in on CCIV last week ahead of potential Lucid reverse merger?
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Messages
1,166
Reaction score
582
Location
Virginia/Quebec
First Name
A. J.
Vehicles
Tesla X Extended Range Plus 2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, SR5
Occupation
EE Retired
No, but thanks for the tip! The risk here isn't with Lucid, IMO, it's that CCIV isn't going to be the one. Looks pretty certain that it is tho. I'll doubtless grab some Tues.
 

Advertisement





 


Advertisement
Top