GM adopts Tesla's NACS standard! Munro begs Rivian to switch

[kallisti5]

What if King Elon decided in 1.5 years from now that he doesn't want all these "other" cars are ruining the superchargers.
He'll make up some BS rule to make it unattractive to use a supercharger. Either super high pricing for non-Tesla cars, or some other limitation that doesn't break whatever contract Ford and GM are agreeing to.

No, I 100% agree. However one big thing CCS had going for it to be the winner was Ford and GM.
With them moving over to NACS... the writing is on the wall that CCS is in big trouble in North America

The key takeaway is to *not* be like Nissan with the Leaf. Nissan knew for *years* that Chademo was dead, but kept making vehicles with it. I wouldn't want to own a Leaf right now.

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[DuoRivians]

If Tesla were to provide Tesla Supercharger API access to all oems, this is how seamless billing could work, like with Rivian.

1. Superchargers sees it's a Rivian plugged in
2. Tesla allows charging and bills Rivian
3. Rivian, in turn, bills the customer.

Seamless billing and service at a supercharger without the Tesla app.

Yes, Tesla can charge a surcharge if they want.

No, Tesla shouldn't use the Supercharger network to try to play "kingmaker"--at minimum this would be anti-competitive and should draw in the interest of the DOJ

 

[zefram47]

The key takeaway is to *not* be like Nissan with the Leaf. Nissan knew for *years* that Chademo was dead, but kept making vehicles with it. I wouldn't want to own a Leaf right now.

About the only thing you've said in this thread I'll agree with. But again, all the IP around the plug/protocol/etc needs to move to an independent standards body...asap.

 

[DuoRivians]

About the only thing you've said in this thread I'll agree with. But again, all the IP around the plug/protocol/etc needs to move to an independent standards body...asap.

Somehow, I think Tesla is never going to allow that without a fight.

 

[SANZC02]

Which raises the big question about Ford’s switch: are they just going to vanish all that marketing effort they put into the power supply side of things?

We’ll have to see how some things play out, but if the dominoes really do fall completely, Elon’s in for some really intense anti-competition investigations.

With Tesla opening things up it is on both sides. Other networks can add the NACS cables to their stations so there is no anti-competition that comes into play.

 

[p3ck]

It means more Tesla Superchargers will be built. See website supercharge.info

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/...andard-Technical-Specification-TS-0023666.pdf

That 4.6 section makes it sound like it's possible with the protocol but not implemented yet. It sounds promising and I haven't seen a CCS implementation either... so maybe both would be available shortly...

 

[Cosmacelf]

I’ve always thought Rivian’s RAN was a waste of money and now doubly so. It wasn’t needed in the first place, and now they are going to be stranded assets.

 

[DuoRivians]

With Tesla opening things up it is on both sides. Other networks can add the NACS cables to their stations so there is no anti-competition that comes into play.

It would be anti-competitive if Tesla only allows certain oems to use it via arbitrary rules or use of mafia-like "pay for access or else" policies.

 

[DuoRivians]

I’ve always thought Rivian’s RAN was a waste of money and now doubly so. It wasn’t needed in the first place, and now they are going to be stranded assets.

There is a huge shortage of DCFC chargers in the US, even if RAN adopted the Tesla plug. This isn't a solution that Tesla alone can solve.

 

[2025R1S]

I agree the market is bigger - but at this point the 2 largest EV makers in USA - Tesla/Ford both are on NACS. GM is now on NACS. The only North American automotive brand still on CCS is Stellantis….who doesn’t even make an EV yet.

Kia, Hyundai, VW - they all sell vehicles internationally - and that means they sell vehicles with 3-4 ports on them already between Europe, North America and China. They don’t care what plug is on the car, they just want you to buy a car.


I wonder how this impacts the IRA, brands like ChargePoint, brands like EA/EVGo and more. Like didn’t GM hire EVGo to install a bunch of CCS chargers? Will we see EA/EVGo switch to add NACS?

CCS is not dead, and that’s part of the problem. Everyone can cheer GM signing on board as well, but until CCS is actually dead, this is just annoying fragmentation that is bad for the consumer.

GM and Ford are not the only car companies. VW, Rivian, Lucid, BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Kia, Toyota, Volvo, Polestar, Nissan, and so on have not committed to making the switch. Moreover, both GM and Ford will be producing and selling vehicles with a CCS plug in the short term.

So now current owners are existing in a world where the charging plug standard built into their vehicles may be functionally obsolete in a few years, and if Tesla doesn’t make a widely available adapter it will crush resale value of already expensive EVs. Buyers in the market are now stuck with the decision of whether they should buy ANY non-Tesla EV right now for fear that the charging plug equipped across the industry will be out of use soon. Charging network operators now have to deal with a potential change in the dominant standard, which could slow rollout of infrastructure over the next few years.

I am in no way advocating for CCS, as the plug is truly terrible, but NACS is far from a done deal across the industry and until it is, the outlook for current non-Tesla owners and buyers in the EV market is murky.

It is silly for Rivian to stay on NACS at this time. With Ford, GM, Tesla and Aptera (yea…) on NACS now; Rivian would be well served to not waste more $ on what will be going against the grain.

If we don’t get rid of CCS, its adapter hell for everyone. Do you want to carry around a J1772, CCS and a bunch of NEMA adapters? I want everything to just be on NACS, that way I don’t have to have an adapter. Because even with CCS, I need a TeslaTap to charge at a Tesla Destination Charger (Which are still more popular and more reliable).

This is really going to complicate things for Rivian moving forward. It looked like Ford might be a one-off, initially, but now it looks like this is going to snowball and EM is actively courting OEMS to come together to enforce a NACS standard.

If I were a Tesla owner, I would be furious, because come 2024, all hell will break loose. Can you imagine showing up to a super charging station that used to be quiet, only to find 40 Chevy Volts hogging up the chargers and threatening to cause a battery fire to burn the entire place down?

Rivian is going to have to make a strategic decision at this point to either succumb to industry momentum, or start reaching out to other auto manufacturers (Ford would have been an obvious choice) to start developing strategic partnerships to develop and open up the RAN network, which is in it's infancy.

One way Rivian could pivot if they decided to join this growing consortium, is to continue to build out a RAN network for places most electric vehicles simply can't get to and leave it open for anyone to use but keep the standard CCS.

 

[2025R1S]

Bloomberg is writing that this move all but assures NACS will become the standard.

ChargePoint stock is down 4% after hours (down 1.75% during the day). EVGo stock is down 5% after hours.

 

[Yossarian]

I second those who've posted that this creates a very uncomfortable situation for Rivian.

The two largest automakers have now agreed to use NACS as their charging standard. The agreement with Tesla essentially doubles the number of charging locations that GM and Ford EV's can use. If that was not enough, the new charging network is more reliable than the other, so it's not just more, it's also better.

The odd man out for the large automakers is Stellantis, and I suspect that they shortly will be or perhaps already are, in discussion with Elon about using the Tesla network. Rivian will surely feel the pressure, and it may be fairly immediate pressure that comes in the form of order cancellations.

It will be interesting to see how Rivian responds.

 

[Autolycus]

With Tesla opening things up it is on both sides. Other networks can add the NACS cables to their stations so there is no anti-competition that comes into play.

The legal standard doesn’t require a pure monopoly. It requires market dominance and anti-competitive behavior. Even something like charging different rates for Teslas vs other vehicles could easily be construed by DOJ as anti-competitive behavior if Tesla controls the port “standard” and the dominant charging network that its vehicle competitors rely on.

 

[dfx]

I agree the market is bigger - but at this point the 2 largest EV makers in USA - Tesla/Ford both are on NACS. GM is now on NACS. The only North American automotive brand still on CCS is Stellantis….who doesn’t even make an EV yet.

Kia, Hyundai, VW - they all sell vehicles internationally - and that means they sell vehicles with 3-4 ports on them already between Europe, North America and China. They don’t care what plug is on the car, they just want you to buy a car.


I wonder how this impacts the IRA, brands like ChargePoint, brands like EA/EVGo and more. Like didn’t GM hire EVGo to install a bunch of CCS chargers? Will we see EA/EVGo switch to add NACS?



It is silly for Rivian to stay on NACS at this time. With Ford, GM, Tesla and Aptera (yea…) on NACS now; Rivian would be well served to not waste more $ on what will be going against the grain.

If we don’t get rid of CCS, its adapter hell for everyone. Do you want to carry around a J1772, CCS and a bunch of NEMA adapters? I want everything to just be on NACS, that way I don’t have to have an adapter. Because even with CCS, I need a TeslaTap to charge at a Tesla Destination Charger (Which are still more popular and more reliable).

How much public charging do drivers actually use? In my 10 years of Tesla ownership with unlimited Supercharging I think I still home charged for at least 95% of the charging
It will be adapters for all. That way Tesla can maximize the Government paybacks for charging infrastructure.

 

[2025R1S]

There are people who fit this mold - they live in an area and never have to leave it. Big cities have all the amenities they need. But in places like the midwest or even Florida - if you want to see a NBA game you gotta drive across the state. It depends on the user, right?

• Some people live where there are no overnight charging options (apartments, condos - even in rural places. Certainly cities have these problems - even cities like Philly where you have to parallel park and you don’t have a driveway). These people use DCFC like ICE drivers use gas stations
• People who tow
• People who drive more than 300 miles round trip
• People who live in northern climates and deal with range loss due to temps

My personal usage over 12 months is closer to 26% Supercharging

How much public charging do drivers avtually use? In my 10 years of Tesla pwnership with unlimited Supercharging I think I still home charged for at least 95% of the charging
It will be adapters for all. That way Tesla can maximize the Government paybacks for charging infrastructure.

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