GM adopts Tesla's NACS standard! Munro begs Rivian to switch

[SASSquatch]

Tesla uses much thinner cables at DC chargers than the cables used at CCS chargers. I never said they were made by Tesla. I called them NACS cables because they are connected to NACS handles. If I called them Tesla cables, you would jump on me too. How would you like me to refer to them?

I hope you actually know what you are talking about, as anyone who ever used a Supercharger immediately noticed how much easier the handle and the cable were to operate because the cable is thinner and weighs significantly less, while the handle is much smaller and easy to plug in.

The cable weighs significantly less because it only needs to reach to the quarter panel of a Tesla backed into a stall.

CCS cables are long enough to reach every EV no matter where their port is. That is the main difference in weight.

The CCS plug is smaller than a gas nozzle. Everyone here bitching about how CCS plugs are so big and bulky and hard to use clearly were incapable of pumping gas at any point in there life.

Give me a 'ing break.

Meanwhile, back at the CCS ranch, the Rivian RAN network, which is still small, is an absolute joy to use. Hear much complaining from Rivian owners using the big unmanageable CCS plug on RAN?

No - because the plug has nothing to do with the user experience. RAN is a walled garden for Rivian owners. Plug and play just like the Tesla Super Charger network.

You don't need an NACS plug to have a good experience - you need a reliable network that is simple to use.

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[docwhiz]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/elon-musk-touts-morally-right-ev-charging-deals

I think opening up the chargers is morally right, and it was something that will help the industry become more electric," Musk told an audience Tuesday at the Edison Electric Institute's EEI 2023 conference. "It's something that will help power sustainability."

Musk told EEI Tesla will not favor one of its competitors over another in granting access to the Supercharger network.

 

[Yossarian]

Rivian should shut down the assembly line now and change to the NACS. No waiting for Magic docks to travel long distance, stress free, in a Rivian. Have not got my Rivian yet but always wanted the NACS on it as I already have an adaptor I have yet to use to where you can plug a NACS into CCS chargers I could carry in the Rivian

I'd say, since so few Rivians have been built so far and hopefully there are many more to come, just "rip the bandaid off" and start installing the NACS in the trucks ASAP. Same for the tiny number of existing Rivian chargers. The sooner they change over, the easier. CCS at this point, is likely to go the way of the Betamax. Also, NACS hardware on the vehicle side is much less expensive and more reliable.

Even if Rivian decided that the future was NACS and that they should change as quickly as possible, it would be many months, perhaps (or maybe even likely) more than a year, before they could do so.

The engineering re-design required is considerable. It involves not just replacing the receptacle, but also moving the charge port with all the attendant changes to both the bodywork and the wiring that entails. There's also the switch to new suppliers to contend with, as well as software changes. It's also possible that there may be safety concerns that may require government approval. Once this is complete, there are myriad manufacturing engineering changes that also need to be done, such as updating the planning and production procedures, as well as incorporating revised QA/QC procedures. Of course there's also the small matter of negotiating an agreement with Tesla, something that may be more complicated for Rivian than it was for Ford & GM due to the IP infringement suit that is working its way through the court. The cost for all of this will be substantial.

If Rivian made the decision to forgo CCS for NACS right now, and if the stars aligned more or less perfectly, my guess is the earliest you could possibly see the change incorporated is in 2025 model year vehicles. I'm not advocating for or against the change, just noting that it's no small thing and can't happen quickly.

 

[Gene]

Even if Rivian decided that the future was NACS and that they should change as quickly as possible, it would be many months, perhaps (or maybe even likely) more than a year, before they could do so.

The engineering re-design required is considerable. It involves not just replacing the receptacle, but also moving the charge port with all the attendant changes to both the bodywork and the wiring that entails. There's also the switch to new suppliers to contend with, as well as software changes. It's also possible that there may be safety concerns that may require government approval. Once this is complete, there are myriad manufacturing engineering changes that also need to be done, such as updating the planning and production procedures, as well as incorporating revised QA/QC procedures. Of course there's also the small matter of negotiating an agreement with Tesla, something that may be more complicated for Rivian than it was for Ford & GM due to the IP infringement suit that is working its way through the court. The cost for all of this will be substantial.

If Rivian made the decision to forgo CCS for NACS right now, and if the stars aligned more or less perfectly, my guess is the earliest you could possibly see the change incorporated is in 2025 model year vehicles. I'm not advocating for or against the change, just noting that it's no small thing and can't happen quickly.

Absolutely everything you have said here is likely correct. All the more reason to ASAP make the big statement to join NACS, get in some fresh orders while also keeping those who may be bailing out for Cybertruck and the new Silverado. Again, just tear off the band aid rather than going down with a sinking ship. I have been driving Teslas since 2012, crossing the country many times. I know how effortless Supercharger road trips are. I have friends with Rivians and Teslas. They leave the Rivian at home for all their road trips (how's that for an "adventure" vehicle?). I have enough Rivian stock to buy a trip around the world so I do want Rivian to succeed. Rivian demand is clearly decreasing and now people are becoming concerned about if Rivian will even survive to service their vehicles that are out there.

Let's see, coming Cybertruck, Silverado, Lightning all to have the ability to actually road trip effortlessly while CCS chargers will be fading away. Rivian already barely hanging in there. I can't see any other choice for Rivian and I expect that they will make the statement to join NACS very soon.

 

[bradrh]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/elon-musk-touts-morally-right-ev-charging-deals

I think opening up the chargers is morally right, and it was something that will help the industry become more electric," Musk told an audience Tuesday at the Edison Electric Institute's EEI 2023 conference. "It's something that will help power sustainability."

Musk told EEI Tesla will not favor one of its competitors over another in granting access to the Supercharger network.

I hope he follows through, & NACS to CCS adapters become available. Until that happens it's a proprietary network & Rivan should stay away.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

The cable weighs significantly less because it only needs to reach to the quarter panel of a Tesla backed into a stall.

CCS cables are long enough to reach every EV no matter where their port is. That is the main difference in weight.

The CCS plug is smaller than a gas nozzle. Everyone here bitching about how CCS plugs are so big and bulky and hard to use clearly were incapable of pumping gas at any point in there life.

Give me a 'ing break.

Meanwhile, back at the CCS ranch, the Rivian RAN network, which is still small, is an absolute joy to use. Hear much complaining from Rivian owners using the big unmanageable CCS plug on RAN?

No - because the plug has nothing to do with the user experience. RAN is a walled garden for Rivian owners. Plug and play just like the Tesla Super Charger network.

You don't need an NACS plug to have a good experience - you need a reliable network that is simple to use.

Exactly. I don’t know how it’s harder to use CCS than a gas pump nozzle. If anything it’s easier. I have never seen anyone need to use two hands to operate a CCS charger.

People on this forum really have a propensity towards exaggeration and fear based projections and I think the people in question should really calm down a little bit.

 

[NY_Rob]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/elon-musk-touts-morally-right-ev-charging-deals

I think opening up the chargers is morally right, and it was something that will help the industry become more electric," Musk told an audience Tuesday at the Edison Electric Institute's EEI 2023 conference. "It's something that will help power sustainability."

Musk told EEI Tesla will not favor one of its competitors over another in granting access to the Supercharger network.

Let's see what he says when Vinfast and some of the other EV's coming out of china want to use "his" network. Would be very easy for him to exclude a brand by saying "their vehicles have damaged our equiment on several occasions" without providing actual evidence.

 

[Gene]

Let's see what he says when Vinfast and some of the other EV's coming out of china want to use "his" network. Would be very easy for him to exclude a brand by saying "their vehicles have damaged our equiment on several occasions" without providing actual evidence.

I don't understand why you are saying this, other than predjudice of your own. What reason do you think that Elon Musk choose to reject any Vietnamese or Chinese makers from the Superchargers?

 

[NY_Rob]

What reason do you think that Elon Musk choose to reject any Vietnamese or Chinese makers from the Superchargers?

Because they could possible offer future EV's at even lower cost than Tesla and he would consider that direct competition. I don't think he's worried about competition from GM, Ford or Stellantis , but if anyone's in a position to offer a budget EV it could be one of the Asian manufacturers. I hope I'm wrong, but his statement about doing the "morally right thing" just seems uncharacteristic of his recent behavior.

 

[Gene]

Because they could possible offer future EV's at even lower cost than Tesla and he would consider that direct competition. I don't think he's worried about competition from GM, Ford or Stellantis , but if anyone's in a position to offer a budget EV it could be one of the Asian manufacturers. I hope I'm wrong, but his statement about doing the "morally right thing" just seems uncharacteristic of his recent behavior.

Elon is already not concerned about the Chinese. Tesla Model Y is the #1 selling car in China right now.


Elon can exhibit some wild behavior at times, but actually Elon and Tesla have been very consistent about their mission statement which is to spur sustainable transport. This mission has been unwavering and Elon has never worried about competition. I have been a very early and substantial investor in Tesla since it's IPO of which I still own all of that stock, have not sold a single share and I continue to purchase more on dips. I have watched/studied Elon and the company carefully ever since. I do not ever believe that I know what goes on in another person's head but I assure you, he is not worried about the Chinese. When Elon has been interviewed and the interviewer asks him if he is concerned about the coming EV's, his answer has been the same since 2012 as it is today, "I am not concerned at all as all cars will be EV's at some point, that's our mission."

I will make a prediction that what we will see is the end (as we know them at least) of all the major automakers worldwide especially the "big three", and most of the European makers. These companies are burdened with huge debt and stranded assets of fossil car mfg. Fast forward 10 years or less and I believe what the dominant automakers of any value will be Tesla, various Chinese companies, Hyundai/Kia, maybe VW. Mercedes and BMW will survive as niche luxury companies at a fraction of their current size. Many lines will be absorbed by the Chinese just as Land Rover (Tata Motors of India) and Volvo (Geely of China) already have been.

Most all auto companies that survive the shakeout will be making budget EV's as EV's become less and less expensive to build. If they want to survive, they will have to.

The people that are really concerned about the coming Chinese cars, are all the legacy automakers who are losing money on every EV they make. These companies only stay alive by selling fossil cars, sales of which are going to vanish. I would not suggest investing any money at all in any legacy auto companies. Tesla was a "no-brainer" safe investment since 2013 on as they actually made a profit on every car sold. As a whole, the company was not showing operating profit as they were investing heavily in expansion of factories and thankfully Superchargers, but the cars themselves were profitable.

My Rivian investment was a foolish investment made on emotion, not prudence. Same for Lucid of which I had money in. I had been urging Lucid back in 2014 when it was Atieva, to join the Tesla chargers. I am wishful for Rivian and Lucid but they are both, unlike Tesla ever was, in a terrible situation of losing money on every individual vehicle that they make and with no way to solve this in sight. I gave up on Lucid and cashed out at ta 90% loss, they are likely, and sadly, doomed. I am hopeful that Rivian has enough cash in order to stay afloat until they produce their next version vehicles which should make a profit.

Summary? Rivian really needs a good shot in the arm. Rivian, please join NACS ASAP, and watch those orders pick up quickly!!

 

[RivLiam]

It's the Tesla charging port.

Ford and GM have now adopted it.

Hopefully Rivian is next. Rivian orders will go through the roof if they can use superchargers IMO

You can use an adapter TODAY, the issue isn't that we don't have NACS ports. It's that Tesla is gatekeeping. If they really want to 'help' the EV market thrive then let everyone use all the chargers and let us buy adapters. This is nothing more than attempting to control the market in a not subtle way....they don't even charge as fast as the newer non-tesla models (NACS caps at 250kw -which isn't an issue for Rivian).

 

[RivLiam]

RJ should be calling Elon now. As a current Tesla owner and Rivian (SOON), the supercharging network has never let me down in 5 years of use.

Why should RJ call Elon? Why don't we all call Elon instead to ask for adapters and and open supercharger network? Screw this "I'll put in your non-standard charging port if you will please let me play in your sandbox with your toys even though its *technically* inferior in speed and power" nonsense. Open the network, charge us what you want. It would be FREE MONEY for tesla to do so.

I already have the app, just waiting for them to unlock a tesla charging station near me to go test it out.

 

[tylerdurden03]

Isnt Tesla suing Rivian as we speak? What makes the crowd think all that has to happen is that Rivian needs to call Tesla? My bet is Tesla is not sitting there waiting for any manufacturer to call him but that hes being selective about who he is allowing in to the network and at what pace. I highly doubt Rivian is near the top of the list giving the ongoing lawsuit. I mean I am all for it - Tesla has it all figured out and the rest of the charging space (ex RAN) is crap but unlikely to be an option for RIvian right now.

 

[docwhiz]

Isnt Tesla suing Rivian as we speak? What makes the crowd think all that has to happen is that Rivian needs to call Tesla? My bet is Tesla is not sitting there waiting for any manufacturer to call him but that hes being selective about who he is allowing in to the network and at what pace. I highly doubt Rivian is near the top of the list giving the ongoing lawsuit. I mean I am all for it - Tesla has it all figured out and the rest of the charging space (ex RAN) is crap but unlikely to be an option for RIvian right now.

Nobody needs Tesla's permission to use the NACS. It's a free, open standard. Just put it on your vehicles. The Tesla app will allow charging. Just add the app and charge.
(For now, it looks like only magic dock SCs are supported. Soon more.)

 

[RivLiam]

Nobody needs Tesla's permission to use the NACS. It's a free, open standard. Just put it on your vehicles. The Tesla app will allow charging. Just add the app and charge.
(For now, it looks like only magic dock SCs are supported. Soon more.)

"more soon" - I won't hold my breath - it took 5 years and a federal incentive to even open the few he has given us now despite promising "we'll open it up to other companies" since 2018...
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-elon-musk-open-supercharger-network/
and again in 21
https://electrek.co/2021/07/26/elon-musk-explains-tesla-open-supercharger-network/

No offense but he'll do the bare minimum to satisfy his agreement to take his chunk of the 2.5 Billion set aside by Biden and no more.

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