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Elon says "...yeah, we're gonna allow other companies to use our Supercharging Networks..."

staples

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I posted someplace wondering why Gas stations are not stepping up to get a piece of the charging pie to help re-coup the money they are loosing on BEV vehicles not needing their gas.
Cuz they aren't losing that much that it's worth the cost to add charging stations to their existing gas stations, if they even has the space and pre-requisite power infrastructure to ease a charger install.
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Gshenderson

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I posted someplace wondering why Gas stations are not stepping up to get a piece of the charging pie to help re-coup the money they are loosing on BEV vehicles not needing their gas.
Sheetz has been slowing adding chargers to their stations - everything from EA, EV-Go and Tesla Superchargers. Shell also bought an EV Charging company awhile back. Can’t remember which one. So I think it’s definitely coming.
 

ajdelange

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I posted someplace wondering why Gas stations are not stepping up to get a piece of the charging pie to help re-coup the money they are loosing on BEV vehicles not needing their gas.
Some gas stations are adding BEV charging but when contemplating this question I think one needs to keep in mind that the gas station of today is not what a gas station was when we were kids. The modern "gas station" is a Sheetz, or Cumberland Farms, WaWa or CheckRite etc. i.e. more a convenience store than a refueling stop. It makes its profit on the stuff you buy while in the store rather than on the fuel they sell outside. The traditional mom and pop gas station tended to be down town and tied to a brand. It was not uncommon to see an Exxon on one corner of an intersection with a Shell on the opposite. They were there so dad could fuel up for his daily commute to work and mom on her way to the supermarket. That kind of refueling for a BEV is done at home or work. Where refueling is needed is adjacent to freeways though there is need in urban areas where the majority of residents are renters and, of course, freeways run near, around and though cities. One of the main benefits of BEV ownership is home charging and while newer condo/apartment construction often offers some sort of arrangement it's not universal. The three things at the top of the list of reasons people won't consider BEV are cost, range anxiety and lack of charging infrastructure so solving the home charging problem for renters is something the industry need to figure out how to do. Once that problem is solved BEV penetration should zoom as should the demand for charging but it won't be for charging near home. Hence the trend to install chargers at the Sheetz type facility preferential to the Shell on the corner. But Shell has announced that they will be installing chargers at their stations in Europe.

A WaWa recently opened in Vienna, VA which is a DC bedroom community though there is lots going on at Tysons Corner nearby. It is in town but not far off I66. The interesting thing about this store is that it has only Tesla SC. No CCS or J1772 (AFAIK) and no gas pumps.
 

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Cuz they aren't losing that much that it's worth the cost to add charging stations to their existing gas stations, if they even has the space and pre-requisite power infrastructure to ease a charger install.
As BEVs increase in popularity, they may change their mind. It’s my understanding that most gas stations make more on their “convenience store” sales than they do on gas. Chargers bring in those EV customers who not only pay for kWh but may also buy high-profit drinks/snacks.
 

ajdelange

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This is the real issue. In the long view, I expect that CCS will be the standard and Tesla will have to update their vehicles ...
No, they won't because they already adhere to the CCS standard. Tesla's can be charged from CCS stations (with the proper adapter) and CCS cars can charge from Tesla SC (in Europe). It's a matter of connectors. While I don't want to trivialize the question of how that will be managed at the least it can be handled with adapters much as in the way Tesla has been charging from CHAdeMO and J1772 for years and, more recently, from CCS.

..and provide adapters for CCS stations.
You can buy this adapter today. Not many have found their way to the US yet (made in China) and there is a current limitation.

It's not hard to imagine Tesla selling new cars with the Tesla proprietary plug and a CCS plug and eventually phasing those out as they install SC with only the CCS connector.

Probably the most important issue here is as to whether CCS will emerge as the standard. I'd say it already has.
 

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As BEVs increase in popularity, they may change their mind. It’s my understanding that most gas stations make more on their “convenience store” sales than they do on gas. Chargers bring in those EV customers who not only pay for kWh but may also buy high-profit drinks/snacks.
Tesla also needs to make money. They currently made no money in 2020 from their cars. All of the Profit comes from selling Energy Credits. As the number of Electric Cars increases from other Manufactures the ability to sell these Credits will go down. I would not be happy as a Tesla Customer if my wait time to Charge went up.
 

JeremyMKE

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Not only is the market headed toward Low Emissions Vehicles, currently EVs but governments are starting to require it. That will delay and change but it's inevitable.

Local small gas stations are going to expand and retract with the market. This is all simple but I thought worth stating.

An example, in major cities its already hard to find gas stations, they are dirty and are on expensive real estate. EVs and base/home charging are going to reduce their need.

Highway stations are likely to hold or increase in capacity as that is the bigger capacity problem.

Rural areas will as is normal be the last to adopt. Smaller populations will be harder to justify infrastructure improvement.

To this point. How much would pay for an adapter to use the best charging network in North America (Tesla)? I would pay upwards of $500 assuming the price per KWh or whatever metric is competitive.
 

ajdelange

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Tesla also needs to make money. They currently made no money in 2020 from their cars. All of the Profit comes from selling Energy Credits.
In 2020 Tesla had $27.2B revenue of which 1.58B was from sale of credits.

As the number of Electric Cars increases from other Manufactures the ability to sell these Credits will go down.
That's true.


I would not be happy as a Tesla Customer if my wait time to Charge went up.
That's true so I am not sure I am completely happy about it when my Tesla hat is on though I am when wearing the Rivian one. Now reasonable Tesla drivers have to realize that the model of charging stations for Teslas and separate ones for Rivians and separate ones for Audi's is not reasonable. Some day everyone will charge at the same station. Yes, the exclusive Tesla network is nice for now but it wasn't built to be exclusive. It was built to charge Tesla cars as you couldn't practically speaking charge them anywhere else.

What has this to do with energy credits?
 
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ajdelange

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To this point. How much would pay for an adapter to use the best charging network in North America (Tesla)? I would pay upwards of $500 assuming the price per KWh or whatever metric is competitive.
I would happily pay $500 for an adapter. That's about what the fast DC charging adapters (CHAdeMO to Tesla) are being sold for now. I think the CCS to Tesla adapter is more like $650 though. But if R.J. Scaringe wants roses and a card from me every Valentines day he will deliver my truck with CCS and Tesla receptacles mounted under the charge door and a charge rate at Tesla SCs commensurate with what Tesla owners pay.
 

MReda

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To this point. How much would pay for an adapter to use the best charging network in North America (Tesla)? I would pay upwards of $500 assuming the price per KWh or whatever metric is competitive.
I haven't thought too much about a number, but $500 seems reasonable. It would certainly be a nice safety blanket to have on road trips.
 

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JeremyMKE

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I haven't thought too much about a number, but $500 seems reasonable. It would certainly be a nice safety blanket to have on road trips.
If we could use Superchargers I would have almost no reservations about range for 98% of my use.

It would virtually guarantee my purchase.
 

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$500 sounds way too high to me! Tesla/J1772 adapters can be had for $150. Why would adding CCS more Than triple the cost?
 

JeremyMKE

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$500 sounds way too high to me! Tesla/J1772 adapters can be had for $150. Why would adding CCS more Than triple the cost?
Thats just the range I WOULD pay ;)
 

CommodoreAmiga

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Gshenderson

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$500 sounds way too high to me! Tesla/J1772 adapters can be had for $150. Why would adding CCS more Than triple the cost?
For the same reason Apple accessories that plug into that stupid lightening connector are 2-3x the cost of comparable USB based connectors that every other manufacturer uses. Because Apply owns the patent on the proprietary tech and charges (see the pun there ;-) whatever they want for it. And people will pay it.

I’ve not bought the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter, even though I could definitely use it. I live in a condo and don’t have charging in the garage. There’s a free public charger a mile away that I typically use. It has both HDFC and J1772. I just leave my car at the J1772 all day or overnight and walk back and forth to my place. It’s about the same amount of time roundtrip walking as it would be to sit there while it charges via CHAdeMO, plus I’m getting some exercise. Not to mention, I’m just too cheap to pay $500+ for the adapter when I have a viable alternative.

That being said, I would pay $500 for CCS to Tesla Supercharger adapter for the Rivian. That’s because there isn’t currently an alternative for destination charging in the black hole of WY, MT and the Dakotas where I spend a lot of time.
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