Death to the longer range R1S?!

[Evonly Indishous]

If the max pack really isn’t an option coming in the next couple of years, that places me more in the camp anticipating the Lucid Gravity. But I was more interested in a large family hauler that can handle snow and ice well, than the true off-road features that Rivian excels at.

Sponsored

 

[dl4060]

This is certainly a buzzkill.

My wife and I drive to Mammoth a couple of weekends a month in the winter from Orange County. The max pack is an absolute necessity for me. Unless charging speeds somehow get MUCH faster.

We take a 2020 Tesla model 3 long range AWD. I have actually found it is a great car for the drive. If I plan things well and leave with around an 85% battery charge it really only adds about 20 minutes to the trip compared to an ICE. Once you understand how to use the logarithm shaped charging pattern to your advantage and you understand the charging stops well it is not a problem. I have actually been amazed at how much easier it all is than I anticipated it would be once you get it all dialed.

But the key is that because the car is small it only takes a 75kwh pack to generate the 322 (probably down to a bit over 300 now due to battery degradation) range. This means that you can add range quickly. The problem with a bigger car is that it takes a long time to generate range when charging, so you really need to have a big pack to deal with that. 316 miles of range generated by a 135 kwh (is that what it is? I forget) pack is simply not going to cut it. 316 from 80 kwh would work, but given that Mammoth is 340 miles from my house I either need the max pack or I need a smaller car that can generate range more quickly due to needing less battery for said range.

I have considered the R1T max pack, if and when that comes out, but I don't know that the bed is big enough to carry the skis I need long distances. I also would like to be able to easily carry surfboards. I almost always surf either a 6'4" or a 6'8" funshape, but I do have a couple of longer boards. Just looking at the R1T I question whether I will be able to haul the toys I want. I do wish they were extending the bed to the area under the seats, the way the Chevy Silverado EV is, that would solve the problem of storing skis and surfboards for the most part.

I guess we will see. I was looking at the model 3 as a stop gap until Rivian got the max pack R1S going, but I have ended up really enjoying it. Unless Rivian gets a bigger battery pack I might just decide an AWD LR model 3 is the way to go. It has certainly worked well so far.

I'm curious to see how Fisker does with their long range options. They seem to be claiming to generate 350 miles of range on their long range offering with far less battery, but I have not really seen the specific details yet.

 

[mkg3]

This is certainly a buzzkill.

My wife and I drive to Mammoth a couple of weekends a month in the winter from Orange County. The max pack is an absolute necessity for me. Unless charging speeds somehow get MUCH faster.

We take a 2020 Tesla model 3 long range AWD. I have actually found it is a great car for the drive. If I plan things well and leave with around an 85% battery charge it really only adds about 20 minutes to the trip compared to an ICE. Once you understand how to use the logarithm shaped charging pattern to your advantage and you understand the charging stops well it is not a problem. I have actually been amazed at how much easier it all is than I anticipated it would be once you get it all dialed.

But the key is that because the car is small it only takes a 75kwh pack to generate the 322 (probably down to a bit over 300 now due to battery degradation) range. This means that you can add range quickly. The problem with a bigger car is that it takes a long time to generate range when charging, so you really need to have a big pack to deal with that. 316 miles of range generated by a 135 kwh (is that what it is? I forget) pack is simply not going to cut it. 316 from 80 kwh would work, but given that Mammoth is 340 miles from my house I either need the max pack or I need a smaller car that can generate range more quickly due to needing less battery for said range.

I have considered the R1T max pack, if and when that comes out, but I don't know that the bed is big enough to carry the skis I need long distances. I also would like to be able to easily carry surfboards. I almost always surf either a 6'4" or a 6'8" funshape, but I do have a couple of longer boards. Just looking at the R1T I question whether I will be able to haul the toys I want. I do wish they were extending the bed to the area under the seats, the way the Chevy Silverado EV is, that would solve the problem of storing skis and surfboards for the most part.

I guess we will see. I was looking at the model 3 as a stop gap until Rivian got the max pack R1S going, but I have ended up really enjoying it. Unless Rivian gets a bigger battery pack I might just decide an AWD LR model 3 is the way to go. It has certainly worked well so far.

I'm curious to see how Fisker does with their long range options. They seem to be claiming to generate 350 miles of range on their long range offering with far less battery, but I have not really seen the specific details yet.

Do you not make any stops for food or nature break?

I live in south OC and drive up to Mammoth time to time, and own a Model 3. We make different stops depending on when we leave or how hungry we are - AND charge the vehicle at the same time.

Ridgecrest, Lone Pine, Bishop? Depending on which direction we are headed.

I don't see it as a problem to way you see it.

 

[sevengroove]

This is certainly a buzzkill.

My wife and I drive to Mammoth a couple of weekends a month in the winter from Orange County. The max pack is an absolute necessity for me. Unless charging speeds somehow get MUCH faster.

We take a 2020 Tesla model 3 long range AWD. I have actually found it is a great car for the drive. If I plan things well and leave with around an 85% battery charge it really only adds about 20 minutes to the trip compared to an ICE. Once you understand how to use the logarithm shaped charging pattern to your advantage and you understand the charging stops well it is not a problem. I have actually been amazed at how much easier it all is than I anticipated it would be once you get it all dialed.

But the key is that because the car is small it only takes a 75kwh pack to generate the 322 (probably down to a bit over 300 now due to battery degradation) range. This means that you can add range quickly. The problem with a bigger car is that it takes a long time to generate range when charging, so you really need to have a big pack to deal with that. 316 miles of range generated by a 135 kwh (is that what it is? I forget) pack is simply not going to cut it. 316 from 80 kwh would work, but given that Mammoth is 340 miles from my house I either need the max pack or I need a smaller car that can generate range more quickly due to needing less battery for said range.

I have considered the R1T max pack, if and when that comes out, but I don't know that the bed is big enough to carry the skis I need long distances. I also would like to be able to easily carry surfboards. I almost always surf either a 6'4" or a 6'8" funshape, but I do have a couple of longer boards. Just looking at the R1T I question whether I will be able to haul the toys I want. I do wish they were extending the bed to the area under the seats, the way the Chevy Silverado EV is, that would solve the problem of storing skis and surfboards for the most part.

I guess we will see. I was looking at the model 3 as a stop gap until Rivian got the max pack R1S going, but I have ended up really enjoying it. Unless Rivian gets a bigger battery pack I might just decide an AWD LR model 3 is the way to go. It has certainly worked well so far.

I'm curious to see how Fisker does with their long range options. They seem to be claiming to generate 350 miles of range on their long range offering with far less battery, but I have not really seen the specific details yet.

Also worth asking: if a Model 3 is serving your needs so well, what gap exactly is the R1S hypothetically filling? If you aren't going to be off-roading and it's just about more space for people/cargo, then perhaps a Model X or Kia's upcoming EV9 would do the trick for you.

 

[dl4060]

Certainly good questions.

We don't tend to stop, other than for charging.

We have our schedules set up so that we usually get every other Friday off. Because of this, we drive up early on Friday morning most days. Usually we leave around 5 am with an 85% charge (or so) in the model 3. Obviously we essentially don't hit traffic at that time.

We typically stop in Inyokern, true whether we go up the 405 or use the desert route, and then usually in Bishop.

Usually one stop is 15 minutes and the other is 10-15 minutes. In and ICE it was usually one 10 minute stop.

So I would say that model 3 adds maybe 15-20 minutes to the trip if we do things efficiently.

Occasionally we will drive up Saturday morning, and come back Sunday night.

My concern is with the morning trips. It is worth driving the model3 if it only adds 20 minutes to the trip. We typically arrive at our ski lease around 1115, put our gear on and hop on the shuttle. Usually we hit the mountain around 1130-12 on Friday, which is fine if we are going to ski all three days. But I still don't want to add additional time to morning trips, as it cuts into the ski day. I can always wake up earlier, but would prefer not to do that for the same time on the hill.

The Saturday mornings we typically leave earlier, usually by 415, because we want more of a full day Saturday if we are only going to ski 2 days.

Sometimes I will wake up on Friday and tell my wife I would prefer to sleep in, get a couple of hours of work done and leave around 1. On those trips, when we are not going to arrive and go straight to the mountain, the time does not matter as much. I don't mind taking breaks on the drive up as long as we are out of the LA basin before the traffic gets terrible.

We almost never leave Friday after 3 pm. I would prefer to drive Saturday morning.

But the big reason I would want the max pack is that a Rivian would need more charging time to generate range compared to a model 3. As I think I said before I love that the model 3 adds range so quickly. We a bigger car, which would require more battery pack to generate lots of range, I would want a lot of range because it would be added slowly when charging on the road.

We live in Newport and the Tesla charger is (I think) 340 miles from our house. It might be slightly more or less than that, I'm not sure. If Mammoth 100 miles closer I would be less worried. If we didn't take 9-10 trips there a year I would also be less concerned.

But yeah, 20-30 additional minutes on a typical trip is fine. If the typical additional time was 1 hour that would be more of a nuisance.

 

[dl4060]

Also worth asking: if a Model 3 is serving your needs so well, what gap exactly is the R1S hypothetically filling? If you aren't going to be off-roading and it's just about more space for people/cargo, then perhaps a Model X or Kia's upcoming EV9 would do the trick for you.

The model 3 does work, but I would prefer the additional space. I would also like slightly better snow performance that the model 3. The model 3 is not terrible in that regard, but I would like something slightly better. Granted, we typically take the shuttle from our place, so the issue is just driving in town in Mammoth Lakes and that is only bad for us maybe a few times a year at most, we make maybe 9-10 trips a year so it's not like we live there and deal with snow all the time, but I would like a bit better snow performance.

I'm keeping my eye on the EV9, and I have thought about the model X. On A Better Route Planner the previous iterations of the model X didn't get me to Mammoth more quickly than the model 3, but I should do some mapping again. In general I just prefer the looks of the Rivian as well, if I want to go away from a model 3 I don't know if it would be fore a model x.

The added range of the max pack was enough that according to ABRP it would probably get me to Mammoth faster than the model 3, although obviously that is all modelling ans speculation at this point, no actual data. The range for the max pack R1S was going to be right in the sweet spot for us. On the way home it would be slower, as I wouldn't be able to charge in Mammoth the way you can with a Tesla, I would have to wait until Biship, but that is honeslty not a big deal. I don't mind the added time on the drive home as much because it does not cut into a ski day.

Thank you for the kia suggestion, I'm going to look at it a bit more.

 

[sevengroove]

Thank you for the kia suggestion, I'm going to look at it a bit more.

No problem - if I'm being honest the off-road chops of the R1S are by no means a necessity for me, so I could very easily do with the tamer capabilities of an EV9. But I do like the look of the Rivian the best, and it will hopefully arrive in my driveway this year, which is a big plus over any of the competition. Edit: that being said, I might hedge my bets and put in a reservation for the EV9 anyway whenever that opens up.

 

[mkg3]

Certainly good questions.

We don't tend to stop, other than for charging.

We have our schedules set up so that we usually get every other Friday off. Because of this, we drive up early on Friday morning most days. Usually we leave around 5 am with an 85% charge (or so) in the model 3. Obviously we essentially don't hit traffic at that time.

We typically stop in Inyokern, true whether we go up the 405 or use the desert route, and then usually in Bishop.

Usually one stop is 15 minutes and the other is 10-15 minutes. In and ICE it was usually one 10 minute stop.

So I would say that model 3 adds maybe 15-20 minutes to the trip if we do things efficiently.

Occasionally we will drive up Saturday morning, and come back Sunday night.

My concern is with the morning trips. It is worth driving the model3 if it only adds 20 minutes to the trip. We typically arrive at our ski lease around 1115, put our gear on and hop on the shuttle. Usually we hit the mountain around 1130-12 on Friday, which is fine if we are going to ski all three days. But I still don't want to add additional time to morning trips, as it cuts into the ski day. I can always wake up earlier, but would prefer not to do that for the same time on the hill.

The Saturday mornings we typically leave earlier, usually by 415, because we want more of a full day Saturday if we are only going to ski 2 days.

Sometimes I will wake up on Friday and tell my wife I would prefer to sleep in, get a couple of hours of work done and leave around 1. On those trips, when we are not going to arrive and go straight to the mountain, the time does not matter as much. I don't mind taking breaks on the drive up as long as we are out of the LA basin before the traffic gets terrible.

We almost never leave Friday after 3 pm. I would prefer to drive Saturday morning.

But the big reason I would want the max pack is that a Rivian would need more charging time to generate range compared to a model 3. As I think I said before I love that the model 3 adds range so quickly. We a bigger car, which would require more battery pack to generate lots of range, I would want a lot of range because it would be added slowly when charging on the road.

We live in Newport and the Tesla charger is (I think) 340 miles from our house. It might be slightly more or less than that, I'm not sure. If Mammoth 100 miles closer I would be less worried. If we didn't take 9-10 trips there a year I would also be less concerned.

But yeah, 20-30 additional minutes on a typical trip is fine. If the typical additional time was 1 hour that would be more of a nuisance.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Never thought to take 405 route (assume you merge to 5 then onto 14 to 395 - I just looked it up on a map). I've always taken 91 to 15 to 395.

Yes your times make complete sense to avoid traffic as much as possible. I see that you have a great schedule 9/80. That said, its quite the commitment to drive to Mammoth as often as you've indicated.

Your story brought back memories when I was in my teens. We used to drive up from the Bay Area to North Lake Tahoe (typically Sugar Bowl or Squaw) almost every weekend during the winter. Except in those days, we were too poor to pay of overnight so we left at 4.30 or so to be on the slopes by 8.30 when they opened and skied until the last run, then drive home - long days but I recall it fondly.

Whe I read that Rivian is about 2~2.5 miles/KWh, I was very disappointed but then I remembered that its a sub 8K lbs vehicle. So your point is dead-on about moving a larger vehicle with bigger battery pack will take longer to charge for the same range as Model 3.

Based on your needs, perhaps the best bet is Lucid Gravity, when it arrives in a couple of years. It is supposed to have similar range as Lucid Air. Fashion Island has a Lucid showroom (if you haven't already been there) for Air and you should be able to get a sense of interior space and guesstimate how a SUV version would be. Meanwhile, you may want to make do with Model 3....

 

[dl4060]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Never thought to take 405 route (assume you merge to 5 then onto 14 to 395 - I just looked it up on a map). I've always taken 91 to 15 to 395.

Yes your times make complete sense to avoid traffic as much as possible. I see that you have a great schedule 9/80. That said, its quite the commitment to drive to Mammoth as often as you've indicated.

Your story brought back memories when I was in my teens. We used to drive up from the Bay Area to North Lake Tahoe (typically Sugar Bowl or Squaw) almost every weekend during the winter. Except in those days, we were too poor to pay of overnight so we left at 4.30 or so to be on the slopes by 8.30 when they opened and skied until the last run, then drive home - long days but I recall it fondly.

Whe I read that Rivian is about 2~2.5 miles/KWh, I was very disappointed but then I remembered that its a sub 8K lbs vehicle. So your point is dead-on about moving a larger vehicle with bigger battery pack will take longer to charge for the same range as Model 3.

Based on your needs, perhaps the best bet is Lucid Gravity, when it arrives in a couple of years. It is supposed to have similar range as Lucid Air. Fashion Island has a Lucid showroom (if you haven't already been there) for Air and you should be able to get a sense of interior space and guesstimate how a SUV version would be. Meanwhile, you may want to make do with Model 3....

I will check the Lucid out. I honestly know very little.

We are lucky to have the schedules we do. It has made skiing a lot much easier.

I am more flexible than my wife. I basically just need to be getting my work done. On the weekends we don't go to Mammoth if I want to get some work done on Friday morning, then head to Baldy I can do it. That generally means some work on Saturday, but I'm fine with that. I do end up working more late nights this way than when I was in a standard office environment, but I wouldn't say I work more hours. I can honestly say that I'm very rarely NOT productive when I'm working. When I was in an office there were definitely times I was not maximizing my time....like Friday afternoons. In my case the idea that every hour worked had a uniform level of productivity and focus was simply not accurate.

Sorry about the rant....Just my pitch for a more flexible approach to work schedules. Hopefully one positive effect of the pandemic will be a reexamining of how we work. That is going on already, and was beforehand. I hope it continues.

What I would REALLY love is to have a driver for those Mammoth trips so that I could get some work done on Friday morning. I usually get some done on the way home, my wife drives at least part of the way, but it would be nice to at least get a few hours done as we cruise up the Owens Valley.

Truth be told I would probably want an SUV a bit smaller than the R1S anyway. The rumors about an R2S sound right up my alley. The last SUV I had before the model 3 was a 2010 Ford Escape that I drove for 8 years. I would say that size of SUV, or maybe slightly bigger, is just right.

I am intrigued by the Fisker Ocean, but I want them to actually start making deliveries. With the new world we are all in it seems to be all about anticipation.

I don't need to move on from the model 3 anytime soon, and for now I'm fine with it. The only car I have liked this much was the Nissan Pathfinder I drove during and after college. It really is a great vehicle.

If I still lived in the mountains and had to deal with snow more often I would probably want an SUV or a pickup. The thing about the Mammoth drive is you almost never hit anything until the top of the Sherwin grade. And even then usually not. But I do like the idea of a car that is really great in the snow. I am considering an R1T as well. I have never driven a pickup, but it might actually suit my needs. My main concerns are the bed size, whether it can haul the skis and surfboards I want. I think it will just get by with the skis, and my everyday board is a 6'4", but sometimes I like to take out a funshape. I have never liked the idea of a big pickup, I think I would have a coronary parking near the beach in Huntington and Newport, but the R1T does not seem THAT big.

Lots to ponder......I would like to check out some data on how well people with an R1T are doing as far as charging speeds go. I have done lots of research on ABRP, but it would be nice to see some real world examples.

 

[RBR1S]

Being an R1S res holder, this is very disappointing to me as well. I held off on the reservations initially because R1S wasn't listed in the configurator with the Max Pack. Trust me had it been, I would have been fighting to be first in line.

That being said, I know it's going to be well into 2023 before they start rolling off the line consistently.

But this does make put reservations in my mind about the R1S. I wanted that long range EVSUV. That was why I locked onto the R1S when they announced it. 400miles. That's what we all wanted.

People would ask WHY do I need 400 miles. OK, fine - from my garage to the Ho Rain Forest National Park is 224 miles - one way. That means I'd get there and have roughly 40-45% charge still; enough to get back to civilization, charge up and go home. 315 means I'll likely have to stop on the way, charge and then limp into the garage empty. And that's just Washington state. It was also a freeway trip from Portland to Seattle and back, without recharging (like I can do in my ICE JGC). Gone.

That being said, it's certainly changed my thinking about trips, but hasn't yet changed my mind about the R1S. I do feel a bit lied to, but not yet betrayed. They may ultimately succeed in a max pack for R1S, or in the R2 series and I'll just wait another 4 years.....

 

[DJG]

Being an R1S res holder, this is very disappointing to me as well. I held off on the reservations initially because R1S wasn't listed in the configurator with the Max Pack. Trust me had it been, I would have been fighting to be first in line.

That being said, I know it's going to be well into 2023 before they start rolling off the line consistently.

But this does make put reservations in my mind about the R1S. I wanted that long range EVSUV. That was why I locked onto the R1S when they announced it. 400miles. That's what we all wanted.

People would ask WHY do I need 400 miles. OK, fine - from my garage to the Ho Rain Forest National Park is 224 miles - one way. That means I'd get there and have roughly 40-45% charge still; enough to get back to civilization, charge up and go home. 315 means I'll likely have to stop on the way, charge and then limp into the garage empty. And that's just Washington state. It was also a freeway trip from Portland to Seattle and back, without recharging (like I can do in my ICE JGC). Gone.

That being said, it's certainly changed my thinking about trips, but hasn't yet changed my mind about the R1S. I do feel a bit lied to, but not yet betrayed. They may ultimately succeed in a max pack for R1S, or in the R2 series and I'll just wait another 4 years.....

I believe they have said that a longer range R1S is being developed, but not the MAX pack. The wheelbase/skateboard is not large enough like in the R1T.

My own personal theory, is that it will coincide with the in house motor design, which will be smaller than the current Bosch units, and possibly even limited to the dual motor variant, creating enough space to package everything.

It definitely won't be the R2, as that will be an even shorter wheelbase than the R1S.

 

[mkg3]

Being an R1S res holder, this is very disappointing to me as well. I held off on the reservations initially because R1S wasn't listed in the configurator with the Max Pack. Trust me had it been, I would have been fighting to be first in line.

That being said, I know it's going to be well into 2023 before they start rolling off the line consistently.

But this does make put reservations in my mind about the R1S. I wanted that long range EVSUV. That was why I locked onto the R1S when they announced it. 400miles. That's what we all wanted.

People would ask WHY do I need 400 miles. OK, fine - from my garage to the Ho Rain Forest National Park is 224 miles - one way. That means I'd get there and have roughly 40-45% charge still; enough to get back to civilization, charge up and go home. 315 means I'll likely have to stop on the way, charge and then limp into the garage empty. And that's just Washington state. It was also a freeway trip from Portland to Seattle and back, without recharging (like I can do in my ICE JGC). Gone.

That being said, it's certainly changed my thinking about trips, but hasn't yet changed my mind about the R1S. I do feel a bit lied to, but not yet betrayed. They may ultimately succeed in a max pack for R1S, or in the R2 series and I'll just wait another 4 years.....

In real world milage, going up to a mountain, as an example from sea level, would never get close to the advertised range. Coming back down, you'll exceed the said range. Combined, may come close but still 20~25% less I would presume, given how heavy R1 vehicles are.

In your example, with the mythical max pack, you'd wold probably be left with 25~30% with the 21" street tires. If you chose 20" AT, it would be much less.

I say all of this based on how my Model 3 has behaved in different conditions and different tire/wheel setup.

The real question is, what's so bad about stopping and charging once? Not talking about having to charge multiple times to just to get to the destination. What you'll have to get used to is the tradeoff between how fast you drive versus total trip time.

With any EV, range decreases significantly with higher speed (both rolling resistance and drag forces increase with velocity squared, and motor RPM goes higher which consumes more electricity), which means you'll have to charge more often than going slower. When you include the charging time in the total trip for driving faster vs slower, you might be surprised which is actually shorter in time. Of course it is distance dependent.

 

[dleewla]

bottom line battery tech needs to improve over the next 5 years. no current EV is going to meet the extreme range needs of some. yes, charging infrastructure will improve and that'll help but there's still the long wait times to charge and the range. hopefully with so many manufacturers transitioning to EVs, this will drive more innovation and we'll see tech improve along with range and faster recharge times.

 

[RBR1S]

I'd also say if you are on the coastal states, you're probably in a better situation to handle not having the MAX pack. I've done too much trip mapping and California is pretty well covered in charging but other states are sorely lacking (sorry kids, wall chargers and crappy 6kw setups don't count in my vision, I don't want to spend my entire trip at the charger). Oregon, it's not too bad but there are gaps. Same with Washington, although some of it's remote corners leave anxiety in place for now.

However, look at the Midwest/Rockies. Billings for example, not a single fast charger listed in any of the apps - and this is the largest city in Montana. That also means going from Montana to SD/ND leaves you begging. And this is I-90. Same with Wyoming for I-80 or I-25. Almost nothing most of the way across the state.

Can you do it on a 300m pack, maybe? I'd hate to be stuck out there. A 400m pack, definitely. If they want to get rid of range anxiety, they need to get that extra 100.

 

[jtshaw]

I'd also say if you are on the coastal states, you're probably in a better situation to handle not having the MAX pack. I've done too much trip mapping and California is pretty well covered in charging but other states are sorely lacking (sorry kids, wall chargers and crappy 6kw setups don't count in my vision, I don't want to spend my entire trip at the charger). Oregon, it's not too bad but there are gaps. Same with Washington, although some of it's remote corners leave anxiety in place for now.

However, look at the Midwest/Rockies. Billings for example, not a single fast charger listed in any of the apps - and this is the largest city in Montana. That also means going from Montana to SD/ND leaves you begging. And this is I-90. Same with Wyoming for I-80 or I-25. Almost nothing most of the way across the state.

Can you do it on a 300m pack, maybe? I'd hate to be stuck out there. A 400m pack, definitely. If they want to get rid of range anxiety, they need to get that extra 100.

I was doing some trip planning for a potential epic road trip from Seattle -> Maine and back and some of those gaps are really big for sure.....Some of those chargers in places like Dickinson, ND are only 50kW too.

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