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Cancelling R1T Preorder - Reasons

Trekkie

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280 wh/mi in an X? that's impressive. I need like a perfect storm of conditions to pull that off, and it's only for like 10 minutes a year.
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Thank you very much for what you share. I have reserved a Rivian R1T max pack as well for towing a 28 feet Airstream that I will receive in July 2022. What is the size of your Airstream? Do you tow with your model X base on its front and rear axles gross weight limits with a weight distribution or with its towing figures provided by Tesla? Have you change the original hich? I am considering the model Xā€¦. Before an internal combustion engine vehicleā€¦ Looking forward for your feed back. Regards, Bernard
Hi Bernard,

I've been towing for 5 years with two different Model Xs. I've done extensive write-ups over at TMC, and you can start by looking at this thread. There are other threads where I and other enthusiasts have shared our towing experiences, consumption numbers, etc.

The short of it is that I do use weight distribution, but I had to replace the stock receiver on the Model X to use it. I have a 22' Sport, which stays under the 500# tongue weight and 5000# trailer weight limits provided by Tesla. Your 28' Airstream will be too large and heavy for an X, but I do encourage you to read up. Note that my thread starts in 2017 with a shorter range X, so a lot has improved over that time and towing is significantly easier with more Supercharger coverage and range.

Good luck!
 
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280 wh/mi in an X? that's impressive. I need like a perfect storm of conditions to pull that off, and it's only for like 10 minutes a year.
I drove 78 miles on Saturday to the shore and back and averaged 243Wh/mi on the whole trip. Temperature, speed, and dry roads are huge factors..
 

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a sober , realistic summary of needs vs wants . Refreshingly honest. God Speed sir !
 

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Iā€™ve come to the same conclusion but for different reasons. I love what rivian has done with the truck and do really want one. But I donā€™t think we are just there yet with battery tech for it to work well for trucks. I think after battery degradation, tires, 4 months of winter cold, general truck aero dynamics, the equation just doesnā€™t work. Worst case, I can see only getting like 150 miles of usable range (10-90%). The economics doesnā€™t work anymore when comparing a full take of gas in a new tundra that gets 22 mpg to the electricity to fully charge a battery that only gets 150 miles (again worst case range)


I am still keeping the reservation for now though
 

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We also tow an Airstream Travel Trailer. It is a 2015 Flying Cloud 25FB. It weighs 7400# ready to camp. We currently tow it with a Chevy Duramax. We have an R1T on order. We plan to tow the Airstream with it. We realize that our Airstream trips will need to be shorter (in distance) than usual.

We look forward to the experience and adventure of Airstreaming with an EV tow vehicle.
 

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Iā€™ve come to the same conclusion but for different reasons. I love what rivian has done with the truck and do really want one. But I donā€™t think we are just there yet with battery tech for it to work well for trucks. I think after battery degradation, tires, 4 months of winter cold, general truck aero dynamics, the equation just doesnā€™t work. Worst case, I can see only getting like 150 miles of usable range (10-90%). The economics doesnā€™t work anymore when comparing a full take of gas in a new tundra that gets 22 mpg to the electricity to fully charge a battery that only gets 150 miles (again worst case range)


I am still keeping the reservation for now though
If you donā€™t want an EV thatā€™s fine but suggesting the the equation doesnā€™t work is misleading. I can see 150 mile range if youā€™re towing but not unladen. And a 22 mpg gas guzzler spewing out 19.8 lbs of CO2 per gallon isnā€™t a good trade.
 

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If you donā€™t want an EV thatā€™s fine but suggesting the the equation doesnā€™t work is misleading. I can see 150 mile range if youā€™re towing but not unladen. And a 22 mpg gas guzzler spewing out 19.8 lbs of CO2 per gallon isnā€™t a good trade.
Not everyone looks at (or really cares about) CO2 per gallon. My current energy cost per mile to drive is $0.40. If I can get the R1T and have it cost < $0.40/mi then it is a good trade to me. My calculated cost for the R1T is going to be < $0.10/mi if I charge at home. It can be even less if I use free chargers at stores, or the RAN.

Now all I have to do is hope it lasts 250K miles to pay for itself. LOL Like I will have a vehicle with that many miles! :CWL:
 

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I've had a Tesla for years, thus haven't dealt with a traditional "dealer" in quite some time. With the Tesla at least, I knew what I wanted, went online and ordered it and had it in a few weeks. Not a big deal. But do have to say, this new tactic of late of taking pre-orders for vehicles YEARS away from being delivered is getting tiresome already.

In the past, when you wanted a car, you went to the dealer and bought it. Or, maybe ordered one and had it in 5-6 months. But, now, having place these pre-orders just to get in line for a vehicle that hasn't been built or produced yet....So much can change in a years time, let alone 2 years or 3 years. Worse still, I've always been more of an impulse buyer. I want it, find it and go get it because I want it now. If I don't find it, I usually change my mind within a day or two and end up moving on.

Even worse now, I love the Rivian, but admittedly, with all the new offerings coming, makes me wonder if I should wait. Again, give me too much time to think about it and I'll usually shy away from it. This wait allows us that much time to see the next latest and greatest thing. I miss the days of something simply being for sale, you buy it and take it home. Very simple. Tesla started it with the Model X, continued it with Full Self Drive software, the Roadster, Truck, Semi, etc, etc. Now, seems like everyone is doing it. Even the big manufacturers. They're now using us to determine if they should build these vehicles. In the past, it was on them to decide to invest and build it. Now, they'll cancel vehicles if they don't get enough pre-orders. Now, they say it'll be here in a year or two and it ends up being 3-4 years.

I think I finally realize why the used car market has gotten so hot. You don't have to pre-order a used car and then wait 2-3 years for it. I've been ready for a new car for over a year and still have at least 6+ months to go before the Rivian will be made available. I've since been able to place orders for the Ford and the Hummer. Then along comes the Silverado, which personally, I think is amazing. Part of me now wants to wait another two years for that one!! Do I keep the orders for Ford or Hummer and cancel if Rivian calls beforehand to say I can finally place my actual order and gives me a delivery date?

Conclusion to the long story, I feel what the OP is saying. We as customers are allowing manufacturers to take our money and sit on it for years, interest free. If we continue to do this, they'll continue taking the free loans. In the meantime, because I can't wait forever and do need a truck in the next 5-6 months, I had to hedge my bets and place orders on multiple vehicles in hopes that ONE OF THEM could make it on time!! I'm over it. After I get whatever I get this time around, I'll be good for at least 2-3 years. Next time around, not playing this game again. I'll get what's available at the time I'm ready to purchase. Not getting a new car, then going straight to the computer after taking delivery to order my next car so it'll be here in 2-3 years from now when I'll be ready for the next vehicle!!
 
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roth_nj

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If you donā€™t want an EV thatā€™s fine but suggesting the the equation doesnā€™t work is misleading. I can see 150 mile range if youā€™re towing but not unladen. And a 22 mpg gas guzzler spewing out 19.8 lbs of CO2 per gallon isnā€™t a good trade.
So just quick math here. We have a 314 mile range. We loose about 10% for AT tires, only are supposed to use 80% of the battery capacity, and lose 30% of range in cold weather driving (also losses in hot weather driving but I havenā€™t researched that as much and happens to me much less than cold in the northeast)

316 turns into 285 with AT tires and we can only use 227 miles of that range. Now on a generous 30% hit it being cold and we are down to 159 miles.

These are all very real issues. Now add in you are paying almost double the cost of a gas guzzler and the look at the total picture.

***for trucks*** I just donā€™t think we are there yet. Cars work because they are cheaper and almost at cost parity now and about twice as efficient as trucks will be. What opened my eyes was comparing the Rivian and the lightening. They have almost the same exact kw/hr efficiency. Right now with our current battery tech limitations - a plug in hybrid makes the most sense for LIGHT DUTY TRUCKS where most if not all daily driving could be done on a battery but longer commutes could use gas. Like the Toyota primes.


But like I said, Iā€™m going to keep my reservation for now and we will see how things look next year because I think ramp up will still be a while. Personally I wish there was something like a EV Miata out there - or the OG tesla roadster but actually available - small and fun to drive but doesnā€™t need to be a super car. Iā€™m probably going to buy a Miata for commuting. I did a lot of research about doing a lead conversion in an old brz too and canā€™t wait til someone sells a turn key kit for those. Like hereā€™s the pile of stuff you need on top of stripping a leaf, go and hook it all up
 

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280 wh/mi in an X? that's impressive. I need like a perfect storm of conditions to pull that off, and it's only for like 10 minutes a year.
I won't say you are driving it wrong because everyone has his own style and is forced to drive in the surroundings life has put him in, but I will say you are driving hard for whatever reason. On the east coast we don't have many freeways with speed limits over 65 relative to what they have out west, for example.

My X LR+ has a rated consumption of 282 Wh/mi. In the last 1500 miles I've averaged 275 and in the last 6500 miles 269 Wh/mi. I am an older guy and thus probably drive more conservatively than average. I know, for example, that I don't come out of a red light or stop sign as aggressively as FSD does. Driving is a mix of around town and freeway. So the fact that OP sees the rated consumption is not at all surprising to me. And it's gratifying to see the "Tesla cheats on its EPA tests..." nonsense debunked by another driver. And, naturally, we wonder if those who espouse that theory will come to conclude that Rivian has cheated on theirs.

[Edit]Another thought. You may be driving an older X with a higher rated consumption. I think the consumption on my first X was a bit over 300. Getting 280 on that car would be an accomplishment!
 
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ajdelange

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True, but it's not going to beat the 280Wh/mi figure I'm getting out of the X no matter what is done. It may get down to the 430Wh/mi range with careful driving. It's a necessity for the shape and weight of the vehicle, not criticizing, just observing.
True the X runs on 280 Wh/mi but more significant is that it (LR+) gives me 3.51 miles per percent battery (or did when new). The R1T Large will give us 3.13 mi/% and the Max 4.1 so in terms of consumption as related to range the Large is a better deal than the X and the Large somewhat (89%) but not dramatically less so.
 
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Max

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I've had a Tesla for years, thus haven't dealt with a traditional "dealer" in quite some time. With the Tesla at least, I knew what I wanted, went online and ordered it and had it in a few weeks. Not a big deal. But do have to say, this new tactic of late of taking pre-orders for vehicles YEARS away from being delivered is getting tiresome already.

In the past, when you wanted a car, you went to the dealer and bought it. Or, maybe ordered one and had it in 5-6 months. But, now, having place these pre-orders just to get in line for a vehicle that hasn't been built or produced yet....So much can change in a years time, let alone 2 years or 3 years. Worse still, I've always been more of an impulse buyer. I want it, find it and go get it because I want it now. If I don't find it, I usually change my mind within a day or two and end up moving on.

Even worse now, I love the Rivian, but admittedly, with all the new offerings coming, makes me wonder if I should wait. Again, give me too much time to think about it and I'll usually shy away from it. This wait allows us that much time to see the next latest and greatest thing. I miss the days of something simply being for sale, you buy it and take it home. Very simple. Tesla started it with the Model X, continued it with Full Self Drive software, the Roadster, Truck, Semi, etc, etc. Now, seems like everyone is doing it. Even the big manufacturers. They're now using us to determine if they should build these vehicles. In the past, it was on them to decide to invest and build it. Now, they'll cancel vehicles if they don't get enough pre-orders. Now, they say it'll be here in a year or two and it ends up being 3-4 years.

I think I finally realize why the used car market has gotten so hot. You don't have to pre-order a used car and then wait 2-3 years for it. I've been ready for a new car for over a year and still have at least 6+ months to go before the Rivian will be made available. I've since been able to place orders for the Ford and the Hummer. Then along comes the Silverado, which personally, I think is amazing. Part of me now wants to wait another two years for that one!! Do I keep the orders for Ford or Hummer and cancel if Rivian calls beforehand to say I can finally place my actual order and gives me a delivery date?

Conclusion to the long story, I feel what the OP is saying. We as customers are allowing manufacturers to take our money and sit on it for years, interest free. If we continue to do this, they'll continue taking the free loans. In the meantime, because I can't wait forever and do need a truck in the next 5-6 months, I had to hedge my bets and place orders on multiple vehicles in hopes that ONE OF THEM could make it on time!! I'm over it. After I get whatever I get this time around, I'll be good for at least 2-3 years. Next time around, not playing this game again. I'll get what's available at the time I'm ready to purchase. Not getting a new car, then going straight to the computer after taking delivery to order my next car so it'll be here in 2-3 years from now when I'll be ready for the next vehicle!!
ā€˜I feel your pain and right there with you. I used to make fun of the kids with sleeping bags in front of apple store waiting for the next gadget. Now I am kinda disgusted with myself being one of them. I have multiple reservations and am not planning to add any to them. My late reservations seem to be almost as good as new ones. You probably want the company to ramp up and get the bugs out of the vehicle anyway. If it is a new company, by then it has proven that it can stick around and you get enough owner reviews to know what you are buying. I really like Silverado too. I just want mid-gate, high AC power output and 800V fast charging. I donā€™t have to have anything else it offers and donā€™t want to pay $100K. They are not saying what you can get at what price and it may end up being like F150 with options. It is all a crapshoot until it is really out. I am still considering ICE truck in 2022 and it that happens, I may get a Bolt too and come back to EV trucks when dust settles. I donā€™t have to buy one now and can wait but if my truck breaks in 2022, I may end up in a Tundra or a Ridgeline.

p.s. I bet Elon is going to add to the mess tomorrow by announcing faster charging and a bunch of other things for CT to get people waiting for that.
 
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ajdelange

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Yes grid tied. I know about that proposal. What a bunch of crap. It is a total disincentive to buy solar. :-(
They are evidently doing the same in Florida and it is, evidently, destroying the industry there. I'm in Va and Dominion Energy quietly sneaked in a $41.97/mo "Net Meter Standby Charge". If I drive the average 1000 mi/mo that adds 4.2Ā¢ a mile to the cost of the electricity I don't get from the utility. I have to admit, though, that it is sort of fair. They DO supply me at night and in the winter months.
 

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I've had a Tesla for years, thus haven't dealt with a traditional "dealer" in quite some time. With the Tesla at least, I knew what I wanted, went online and ordered it and had it in a few weeks. Not a big deal. But do have to say, this new tactic of late of taking pre-orders for vehicles YEARS away from being delivered is getting tiresome already.

In the past, when you wanted a car, you went to the dealer and bought it. Or, maybe ordered one and had it in 5-6 months. But, now, having place these pre-orders just to get in line for a vehicle that hasn't been built or produced yet....So much can change in a years time, let alone 2 years or 3 years. Worse still, I've always been more of an impulse buyer. I want it, find it and go get it because I want it now. If I don't find it, I usually change my mind within a day or two and end up moving on.

Even worse now, I love the Rivian, but admittedly, with all the new offerings coming, makes me wonder if I should wait. Again, give me too much time to think about it and I'll usually shy away from it. This wait allows us that much time to see the next latest and greatest thing. I miss the days of something simply being for sale, you buy it and take it home. Very simple. Tesla started it with the Model X, continued it with Full Self Drive software, the Roadster, Truck, Semi, etc, etc. Now, seems like everyone is doing it. Even the big manufacturers. They're now using us to determine if they should build these vehicles. In the past, it was on them to decide to invest and build it. Now, they'll cancel vehicles if they don't get enough pre-orders. Now, they say it'll be here in a year or two and it ends up being 3-4 years.

I think I finally realize why the used car market has gotten so hot. You don't have to pre-order a used car and then wait 2-3 years for it. I've been ready for a new car for over a year and still have at least 6+ months to go before the Rivian will be made available. I've since been able to place orders for the Ford and the Hummer. Then along comes the Silverado, which personally, I think is amazing. Part of me now wants to wait another two years for that one!! Do I keep the orders for Ford or Hummer and cancel if Rivian calls beforehand to say I can finally place my actual order and gives me a delivery date?

Conclusion to the long story, I feel what the OP is saying. We as customers are allowing manufacturers to take our money and sit on it for years, interest free. If we continue to do this, they'll continue taking the free loans. In the meantime, because I can't wait forever and do need a truck in the next 5-6 months, I had to hedge my bets and place orders on multiple vehicles in hopes that ONE OF THEM could make it on time!! I'm over it. After I get whatever I get this time around, I'll be good for at least 2-3 years. Next time around, not playing this game again. I'll get what's available at the time I'm ready to purchase. Not getting a new car, then going straight to the computer after taking delivery to order my next car so it'll be here in 2-3 years from now when I'll be ready for the next vehicle!!
This made-to-order issue is not unique to Rivian or even the auto industry. Construction equipment, material handling equipment, trailers, spools of copper wire - I could go on. This situation is less about manufacturers wanting to control the market and more about lack of supply of everything. Letā€™s not forget, in a traditional dealership model like Ford, GM, Bobcat, Kubota, etc - those manufacturers make money when they sell to the dealer and not when the end user buys the product.

Controlling the amount and timing of the orders is more a function of production capacity (or lack thereof). The more they produce, the more money they make - it doesnā€™t benefit them to constrain production. For direct to consumer models, especially for high demand products like cool EVs, the story is much the same.
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