As you might have guessed.... higher gas prices has increased interest in EVs [ADMIN WARNING: NO POLITICS]

[Donald Stanfield]

Did you think about taking that 15 - 20k cost to get into that RAM and install a solar system instead? We have an offgrid vacation place and we charge our R1S from solar. Takes a few days to reach 70% SOC but we have a SxS for our daily outings. Plus our town with the restaurants has free 11kw L2 charging and the town with the Costco, Wallyworld, etc. has Superchargers.

Solar isn't very productive in Northern WI, especially in winter. I stay 30 min from the land and hunt it. I don't have a cabin on the property, so I need to commute each day. The solar wouldn't charge it enough.

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[Rade]

I'm trading my Rivian in for an ICE Ram RHO on Tuesday. I love an EV for daily driving, but long trips to remote areas are a massive pain in the ass

I get that. We are fortunate to live in an region with a large EV charging infrastructure, and on planning an extended road trip for mid Autumn down the Eastern seaboard, see that our route and extended stops all have sufficient charging infrastructure. Every destination we've taken the R1T to since getting it has proved acceptable for charging, or within the range of the fully charged battery.

I've been watching the YouTube channel, "Trucked Up EV" a lot, and the host takes his EV's way into the Canadian wilderness. His recent videos have touted what he has done to bring along things like a portable generator and turning the EV into an EREV through aftermarket upgrades. A lot more than I care to do, but fascinating how he's MacGyvered his way around the range issues.

Sadly, EV depreciation is a factor (for the moment), but the used EV market is hot right now. You seem to be in that sour spot I was in; I had falling equity in a 5yo trade, wanted a new truck, but... there was nothing in an acceptable price point other than the Gen2 R1T. Not regretting or second guessing the change, and I will get my thumb out of my ass on complaining about the nits in the OS at some point. Now I am watching the new EV technologies emerging and expect those to make what is state-of-the-art right now rather obsolete in another year or so.

 

[Redmond Chad]

The reason why the R2 will replace the '17 Forester and not the much "thirstier" '04 Forester is because the joy of driving the '04 cannot be matched by an EV (at least not yet). The driver is more integrated with the machine through addition of the shifter, clutch, and handbrake, and in a good manual transmission vehicle it creates a deeper bond with the car. An EV has none of those.

I don't want to discount your preference; I really hope you end up with a set of cars you like.

But I would like to offer a different perspective to the audience. The majority of the gas cars (and motorcycles) that I owned before going electric in 2009 had a manual transmission. I loved shifting, and as I waited for my first EV to arrive I worried that I would miss shifting because it was so much fun. My first post on another EV forum mentioned it.

It only took a few weeks of driving for me to realize that I didn't miss shifting. Yes, it was enjoyable when I did it, but only because I was in a flow state as I wrung the most of the available power out of the car. It turns out that in my EV, I can do the same thing - with less effort, as it's all under my right foot.

I enjoy driving EVs much more than gas cars. The only gas car we ever "missed" was a camper van, simply because electric ones weren't available. Now we have an electric camper van, and there are no gas cars that interest me at all. Well, OK, maybe a Miata...but because of the size and handling (there are not yet any EVs in that form factor) rather than the engine or shifting.

 

[Dave Cundiff]

The reason why the R2 will replace the '17 Forester and not the much "thirstier" '04 Forester is because the joy of driving the '04 cannot be matched by an EV (at least not yet). The driver is more integrated with the machine through addition of the shifter, clutch, and handbrake, and in a good manual transmission vehicle it creates a deeper bond with the car. An EV has none of those. I'm not saying there are no EV's that are good or fun to drive, I'm saying the level of connectedness with the vehicle is not the same. And so, even though the older vehicle gets pretty poor gas mileage compared to the newer one - the joy of driving it is what makes us want to keep it. The EV will be a utility- something to use. Our '04 Forester is an indulgence- something to enjoy.

My favorite "fun car" was a 1978 Fiat 128 stick-shift sedan. We couldn't afford the time or money to maintain it, but we really enjoyed driving that car and remembered it fondly!

Then we got our first all-electric, a 2019 Chevy Bolt. That was just as much fun! Great torque, great control, great road feel. No more nostalgia for the Fiat.

Rivians are as nice as the Bolts, but in a different way. Think "road mastery" for the Rivians, compared with "road feel" for the Bolts.

Best to all!

...

 

[mkg3]

...I owned before going electric in 2009 had a manual transmission. I loved shifting, and as I waited for my first EV to arrive I worried that I would miss shifting because it was so much fun....

...no gas cars that interest me at all. Well, OK, maybe a Miata...but because of the size and handling (there are not yet any EVs in that form factor) rather than the engine or shifting.

Other than nostalgia, manual transmission - while it's more engaging (actually more work) as a driver - is out dated and overrated. I owned nothing but MT until the family size became such that I needed a 4 door vehicle.

There is nothing better than EV for daily driver. The commute, errands and just running around is the best use case for EVs. These are where ICE vehicle perform the worst with lowest MPG/efficiency.

So in this use case, MT is much more arduous due to constant shifting and dealing with 3 pedals. While AT can do the job, it sucks. Especially CVT. I will never buy another CVT vehicle (I own an Outback). The traditional toque converter AT does a better job than CVT, still lacks the immediate response.

So there is the double clutch transmission, which really is an automated MT with 2 clutches - one for odd and one for even number of gearing. Response is immediate and can shift faster than any human can. The best part is there is the paddle shifting so one can drive in manual or automatic mode - the driver's choice. I own one of these too and is great.

It is all use case dependent. I like the light weight of ICE compared to EV for sports cars. The handling and agility of light weight vehicle cannot be matched by however quick and lower CG EVs in terms of driving enjoyment.

Efficient and easy to drive, and the ability to charge overnight at home, makes EV the best daily. Not looking to go carving the canyons or fast drive on the twisties.

Long road trip is the hardest to decide and what road trip means. If owning, definitely ICE. If not, EV is very competitive. I just finished ~2,800 mile road trip with our R1S. Worked out just fine but I was not off the beaten path. All within the city pairs and main interstates or highways staying in hotels. If camping, it probably would have been different.

Cost of gas was such that we saved over $300 over the trip by using Tesla SC rather than gas stations. But gas was around $6/gal then (west coast) and now aless than $5 and going down still so it was indeed temporary condition. The savings probably would not exist today. In fact, if this was done in central and southern part of the country, the EV charges may be higher than gas.

 

[Rade]

Think "road mastery" for the Rivians, compared with "road feel" for the Bolts.

It does have that "floaty" ride like an old Mercury or Lincoln...

 

[Time2Roll]

I found that I liked having the direct connection to the engine with a manual transmission vs the automatics with torque converter etc.

The EV extends that same connection to the motor with one gear from zero to 100+ mph. The direct connection is still with an EV. Just not the shifting to accommodate the limits of the engine.

 

[Great Gatsby]

Interesting. I've never had an ICE vehicle that I looked forward to driving every single day. Not even my M3 Beemers. We've been an EV only household for over three years now and bought our fist EV five years ago. Driving them is always fun. The ICE loaner I had three weeks ago was a POS and I dreaded driving it.

Even though road trips take longer we enjoy our charging stops. We get out and move around more and feel much more refreshed after a long day (I'm sure the Autonomy and SuperCruise is a big part of that).

We will never own another ICE vehicle again and am hopeful classic car EV conversions become common/affordable while I'm still young enough to wrench.

Very much this. I've had several "fun" cars throughout the years but I've never woken up excited to run errands like I have with our EVs. Fun means different things for different people, and none of those to me which have to do with shifting gears or engine noise. If someone else prefers that, great, but I hate that people claims that ICE vehicles are more fun as an objective fact. To me, it couldn't be any more opposite. Low center of gravity due to battery for balanced handling, instant linear speed and regen make a much more pleasant experience for me.

I'm in between cars now and the idea of going back to ICE, even for something "sporty", doesn't seem very exciting. I've thought about hybrid but it still feels compromised. To get the performance of an EV, I'd need to spend $20k-$40k more for a similar vehicle. The whole EVs are more expensive thing is not holding water when you compare them on the performance sheet, which I do.

As for the topic at hand, prices dropped and are right back up again. I've said it a few times but I'll say it again - it is not so much about gas prices but the instability that will drive people towards EVs as well. One of your highest monthly utilities going up a whim is not fun. We bought a Model Y in February and it already hit 11,000 miles. Driving is borderline guilt free in that thing. No worrying about getting gas, what gas prices are, or the next oil change, or transmission fluid change, or replacing brakes. We just drive it. Hard to go back to anything else. I preach the gospel anytime someone comes to me with any kind of EV curiosity.

Still not fully for everyone, sure, I get that - but to still only be less than a 1/10th of the market? That is some strong FUD at work.

 

[Jeff M]

It's up to preference.

• Are you a truck person, SUV person or sedan person?
• Are you a Ford person or a GM person?
• Are you a US brand or an Asian brand loyalist?
• Do you prefer VW or Mercedes over BMW?
• Do you prefer electric over gas or hybrid?

When we were ICE owners, and at the gas pump paying $2.39 a gallon, and we'd see the Land Rover, Audi or Mercedes at the next pump over using the $3.49 per gallon high octane, we just shook our heads in disbelif on "How could ANYBODY want to drive a vehicle that requires an expensive gas to operate!" then go into our usual round-robin discussion of quality the given brand. Same with watching someone in a jacked up, black-out F-150 Lariat or Jeep Commander that surely "...never sees more than 12mpg, and has had HOW many recalls last week?".

But it came down to - those owners preferred those vehicle over all others. Out of what? Brand loyalty or familiarity? Peer pressure? Accepted hype?

We (husband and I) prefer electric. I was firmly in the Nissan court until I went Rivian. Don't care if it's a Tesla, Rivan, Nissan Leaf (out of production at time of switch) or Slate, we prefer electric. Yes, we pay here in Southern New England an average of $0.29 per kw to charge at public charging, $0.25 at home (no discounts). The RIvian has a 109.4kW battery, from empty (though rarely below 20% before I plug it in, and rarely need to go to a full charge), it would cost $31.73 to fill it, and give me 330+ miles of range. Every vehicle, regarless of shape or type will have a battery that will, on average, cost (here) $0.29 per kw to fill. If a car might be a half the size of the Rivian (looking at you, Telo), but if it has a (theoretical) 106kw battery, it will still cost the same to fill is as a, say, the Rivian. BUT, and this is the big but, that $0.29 / $0.25 figure has not changed since we started owning EV's almost 2 years ago. And speed of charge will make no difference a kW at a 200kw charger costs that same as a kW at a 400kw charger. But with electric - hey! Electricity didn't soar from $2.39 to $4.99 over the period of 3 weeks. It remains consistent. And that, along with the lighter routine maintainence, is why we drive EV's.

I have begun using the Tesla Supercharging network again so that we have a chance to bank some solar net credits to offset our power costs for Winter. Over the past month, it has cost me about $15 a week to put roughly 50kW of power back into the truck each week. Husband is still charging up his Model Y when he gets home. His L2 charging has run $140 for the month of June or roughly $28 a week (he commutes 60 miles a day to work plus side errands).

But as I have stated in other posts on this forum, I feel NOTHING for those ICE drivers and I really don't care to hear them moaning about the price of gas. As they say on "The Simpson's", "HA! HA!" You had how many years to wrap your head around how the price of oil is managed yet you still bought the Detroit hype that EV's are bad? And we love when we see the Swamp Yankees barreling next to us in their modified diesels where they "roll coal" as if in some form of "I'm showing YOU, Libs!". We just point out as he (always a he) whoops and hollers down road, "Well, there goes another gallon of diesel fuel! Ca-CHING!"" All I can say is, good luck to you.

I am glad to hear of the senisbility coming our of Europe and Asia; to not be beholden to oil and to embrace green energy, and that they are essentially eating our lunch on the topic. Perhaps, some day, the US will become a leader in something other than "clean coal" and proposed Walmart nuclear.

I'll come off my soapbox now.

 

[Zathras]

Just paid $4.999 in Vista, CA yesterday. Way down. But when someone said a few weeks ago they saw a used R1S for $38,000 I took a look. Anywhere in the country, all I could find was $56,000 and up. Mostly above $62,000 with more than 70,000 miles. So at least in the short term, prices of used are up like what happened in COVID. And who knows when the prices will settle?

 

[Jeff M]

The one piece to our EV vs ICE conversation is the federal fuel tax for our Highway Trust Fund. States are charging EV owners at registration and in my opinion that is unfair because the EV additional registration cost doesn’t necessarily equate to the per gallon ICE vehicle. My state - Idaho, adds an EV additional charge based on weight class to offset the lack of state fuel tax receipts at the pump. The federal fuel tax isn’t indexed to inflation and while currently at $0.184 for gasoline and $.0244 for diesel - it hasn’t changed since October 1, 1993. A commission was appointed during the Biden Administration but nothing has come to fruition regarding funding the national highway trust fund based on vehicle weight class and miles driven. In my opinion miles driven and vehicle weight class directly affect highway and bridge/overpass durability. I think miles driven and weight class removes energy efficiency from the Highway Trust Fund argument and equalizes the argument to how much is the vehicle using the highways.

 

[Zorg]

Aside from racing, manual gears suck. Reality is that I just drive at reasonable speeds on freeway and around town, and for that an EV is most practical.

Back to original topic, interest in EV will continue to increase. It's mostly an issue of exposure to it.

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