R1S 20 inch replacement: Michelin Defender LTX M/S 2 vs vs Goodyear Wrangler Territory At

[B Digs]

I have 5K on the Goodyears, wouldn’t buy again, only two ply, got nasty cut and had to be patched by local in middle of nowhere! Three hours from a town, and the emergency tire on R1S was super sketchy rolling over the chucks rocks on gravel road to find a general store in Holberg, BC where he patched the tire from inside, would not recommend this tire to anyone who goes off roading, will be replacing to get some off road reliability, quiet but dangerous to have a useless tire in middle of nowhere, tried plugs and sealant but too big a cut! Drove the hell out of original pirellis and never had any issues except road noise.

Hi, sorry to hear this was your experience—I understand your frustration.

Tire performance can vary significantly depending on terrain, load, and driving conditions, so it's difficult to say whether any tire would have held up to whatever caused the damage in this case. The Goodyear tire was engineered with Rivian’s always-adventurous philosophy in mind—designed to handle a wide range of terrains and challenges. Your mileage may vary, but the design intent was to align with Rivian's adventurous values.

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[Singletracker]

OP mentioned Falken Wildpeak AT3/W. Had these on my Toyota FJ and loved them. Best tires I have ever had! Wore great, were very quiet, never an issue off road, and were very good in the snow. I will say these were not the LT rated version, however. The only drawback I can see with the AT3W in the E rated version would be the weight. I‘m not sure how much impact the extra weight would really have on efficiency. I will be seriously considering these when my Pirellis are toast, which won’t be long.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

OP mentioned Falken Wildpeak AT3/W.

Discontinued. Replaced by AT4W. 18 lbs heavier than the factory Pirelli AT. That is very significant, since rotational mass is exponentially higher, with increasing speed, than static mass.

 

[Jonjon09]

Here's a quick side by side of the LTX platinums vs the Pirelli Scorpions. Not quite as aggressive looking but still looks really good for an AS tire IMO!

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Here's a quick side by side of the LTX platinums vs the Pirelli Scorpions. Not quite as aggressive looking but still looks really good for an AS tire IMO!

Defender LTX Platinum (LT) ≠ Defender LTX M/S2 (XL). Two different Michelin models. 59 lbs vs 42 lbs static. Big difference.

 

[Jonjon09]

Defender LTX Platinum (LT) ≠ Defender LTX M/S2 (XL). Two different Michelin models. 59 lbs vs 42 lbs static. Big difference.

Correct, thanks for the clarification. Just thought I would add a third option that is worth considering to get best of both worlds between AS and AT. The M/S2 just does not look as good IMO.

 

[ben_jammin]

You are shopping 3 tires in 3 different categories. A bit odd. Determine what your primary use criteria is and the question would be answered.

The Falken is a true AT. And I believe the AT3W has been discontinued in favor of AT4W. These Falkens, if LT E-load, are significantly heavier than the factory Pirelli AT (66 vs 48 lbs static). Tough but sacrifices efficiency and on-pavement driving dynamics for durability. Forum members on AT3W have expressed difficulties in finding replacements. The smaller (275/60R20) XL Goodyear is a AT/AS hybrid (42 lbs static), expect it to slot between the Falken and the Michelin MS2 AS in off-pavement traction. The Goodyear, being 1.2” smaller is probably similar in efficiency as the Michelin. https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/tire-advice-for-2023-rivian-r1s-–-stuck-between-xtm-ko3-and-toyo-a-t-iii.48156/post-835597

Using Jeep Jamboree's trail rating as a reference... Rating 1~2, you do not need AT tires at all. Rating 3~5, if you do not have AT tires, you will discover traction limits more and more. Rating 6 and above, AT is a bare minimum must-have.

There isn't a super tire that does everything exceptionally well. Whatever it excels at, be it efficiency or off-road performance, it sacrifices other attributes to achieve it. Case in point... experiences shared below of the Goodyear Territory AT RIV. It gives up some efficiency to have a more off-pavement (plus inclement weather capability) capability and rugged looks than the typical smoother rolling and plain looking all-season. But it is not as tough as a true AT with more material and durability. It attempts to strike a balance between AT and AS.

Yeah this is a good shout. The Wildpeak's sparked my interest based on what this guy is doing which is similar to what I'm looking to do and his range (at least in a R1T) doesn't seem to suffer all that much.



Based on your note I would say just go ahead with the goodyear's but then after reading the following couple of people's thoughts it makes me think not to. The fact that they don't have any tread warranty is kind of a put off as well but biggest wonder is will they fit on a gen 1 275/65R20 wheel when they are 275/60R20 in size?

Another option I had originally been looking at was the Continental Terrain A/Ts which are said to be a nice hybrid which is good for mostly highway driving with some minimal off roading (similar to the build of the Goodyears)? If not the Goodyears or the Falkens then maybe that's the best option?

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Based on your note I would say just go ahead with the goodyear's but then after reading the following couple of people's thoughts it makes me think not to. The fact that they don't have any tread warranty is kind of a put off as well but biggest wonder is will they fit on a gen 1 275/65R20 wheel when they are 275/60R20 in size?

Another option I had originally been looking at was the Continental Terrain A/Ts which are said to be a nice hybrid which is good for mostly highway driving with some minimal off roading (similar to the build of the Goodyears)? If not the Goodyears or the Falkens then maybe that's the best option?

It depends on where off-pavement you go and how well the tire's limitations match up to conditions. Another way to describe the Goodyear is AT-lite. Factory Pirelli AT are also AT-lite. Search and you'll find plenty of cases where people punctured those. Heck, search even harder on the broader internet, you'll find cases where people shredded their BFG K03 or Wildpeaks. Every single tire has limits. How they fare depends on where you take them and how hard you push them.

Again, define your criteria. That is the key. That super tire that is #1 in everything doesn't exist. If you want to check all boxes the Pirellies tick, but don't want another set, SL version of Toyo Open Country AT3 EV is as close as it gets (and slightly cheaper). If you want something tougher and don't mind sacrifices that come with extra weight, get the LT version. If you want ultimate efficiency, then you need to be willing to sacrifice looks and off-road capability: Michelin M/S2 or many other available all season tires. If most of your driving is on pavement, you also want better efficiency, AND you want to significantly reduce tire replacement costs... the Goodyears are hard to beat, at less than $250 a tire today from Tire Rack; was $270 just a few weeks ago.

As for the linked video, efficiency results are linked to usage. Repeating my post in the other thread, if most driving is highway cruising, efficiency isn't impacted as much. But, impacted regardless. If most driving is urban and suburban, that impact will be much more noticeable. Can't take someone's anecdotal evidence without context. Heavier wheels & tires take more energy to spin up, make suspension work harder and make steering components work harder. There is no escaping laws of physics. The factory ATs are already down 15~20% to the more efficient factory options. IMO, if you're going to spend $ to make your vehicle better... losing even more energy, altering steering and suspension feel/performance, isn't making things better... Unless your #1 goal is a set of extra tough tires, at the expense of everything else.

 

[ksujeff99]

I have run the Michelin LTX Platinums since March 2024. They've been good to me. Wear seems to be within expectations. Noise is nonexistent. I have no issues in rain or snow - quite the opposite as they've done well in both. My only complaint is they're a LT-rated tire so they are heavy. The increased heft was noticeable when I first had them installed. The truck felt heavier, the suspension noisier, etc. Now, of course, I don't notice it. Would I install them again? Maybe. When they're due for replacement I'd rather go for a lighter, more compliant 116 load-rated tire. But not the Michelin M/S2. The sidewall is just too smooth and boring. Call me vain.

 

[ben_jammin]

It depends on where off-pavement you go and how well the tire's limitations match up to conditions. Another way to describe the Goodyear is AT-lite. Factory Pirelli AT are also AT-lite. Search and you'll find plenty of cases where people punctured those. Heck, search even harder on the broader internet, you'll find cases where people shredded their BFG K03 or Wildpeaks. Every single tire has limits. How they fare depends on where you take them and how hard you push them.

Again, define your criteria. That is the key. That super tire that is #1 in everything doesn't exist. If you want to check all boxes the Pirellies tick, but don't want another set, SL version of Toyo Open Country AT3 EV is as close as it gets (and slightly cheaper). If you want something tougher and don't mind sacrifices that come with extra weight, get the LT version. If you want ultimate efficiency, they you need to be willing to sacrifice looks and off-road capability: Michelin M/S2 or many other available all season tires. If most of your driving is on pavement, you also want better efficiency, AND you want to significantly reduce tire replacement costs... the Goodyears are hard to beat, at less than $250 a tire today from Tire Rack; was $270 just a few weeks ago.

As for the linked video, efficiency results are linked to usage. As I noted in the other thread, if most driving is highway cruising, efficiency isn't impacted as much. But, impacted regardless. If most driving is urban and suburban, that impact will be much more noticeable. Can't take someone's anecdotal evidence without context. Heavier wheels & tires take more energy to spin up, make suspension work harder and make steering components work harder. There is no escaping laws of physics.

Yeah that make sense - 100% can puncture any tire. I'm probably 90% high way with 10% light to moderate off road so just want to still be decently capable when needed. Still leaning towards the goodyears vs picking up another set of the Pirelli's.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Yeah that make sense - 100% can puncture any tire. I'm probably 90% high way with 10% light to moderate off road so just want to still be decently capable when needed. Still leaning towards the goodyears vs picking up another set of the Pirelli's.

Then the AT-lite tires are more than sufficient. You just have to be more careful about putting those sidewalls in harms way (and carry a spare). True E-load ATs would be overkill in your usage case.

Another plus for the Goodyears? Being an OE tire there is a software profile for them already. Less second guessing on range estimates than a tire that wasn't developed or tested by Rivian (i.e. the Toyo). @B Digs had a hand in developing the Goodyear. Ask him any questions you might have about the tire.

 

[Semibruce]

Not to muddy the waters, but the Toyo Open Country A/T III EV seems like a great compromise for light off road, noise and tread life. Also only 45 lbs (for the 116), so should be somewhat efficient vs. OEM. It's also available in an LT version if you need something tougher.

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[beachcruider]

Last week, on my 2023 R1T, I replaced original 20” Pirelli Scorpians ATs at 21,000 miles (I drive lots of winding mountainous roads) with Michelin Defenders MS/2s and have zero regrets! The Defenders get great reviews, they are so much smoother and quieter, they should be more efficient, and they are significantly cheaper than the Pirelli’s. I am thrilled enough to post! That said, I don’t anticipate off-roading and will only drive in snow once or twice a year. The professional shop with lots of Rivian experienceI that I use didn’t mention anything about a tire fit on OEM rims issues I saw posted.
Side note: the mechanic pointed out the left rear shock/dampener was leaking. The nearest Rivian shop took in my truck 2 days later and 5 days later have replaced both rear dampeners, and both front axles that had leaking seals. All this done under warranty including a rental car and daily email updates. Great service but concerning that all four wheels had issues…

 

[shicks]

I bought the michelins. I was replacing the pirellis every 15k (front only), but the michelins lasted 25k (front, yes I dont bother rotating) and the rear have 50k on them. My efficiency went up to 2.48, but that's also a factor of the wheel weight (msw). I dont feel great on mountain roads bc of the lack of thread depth, but I think they handle great in snow (I live in park city) and still last in the summer heat. Overall, they're great if you're lazy like me and want one tire to handle a variety of circumstances.

 

[Aardvark]

I bought the michelins. I was replacing the pirellis every 15k (front only), but the michelins lasted 25k (front, yes I dont bother rotating) and the rear have 50k on them. My efficiency went up to 2.48, but that's also a factor of the wheel weight (msw). I dont feel great on mountain roads bc of the lack of thread depth, but I think they handle great in snow (I live in park city) and still last in the summer heat. Overall, they're great if you're lazy like me and want one tire to handle a variety of circumstances.

Which Michelins did you get?

I do a lot of Colorado winter snow driving, but I already bought a set of Hakka snow tires on dedicated rims.
I've got 34,000 miles on the original 20" ATs. When the snow tires go on this winter, I'm replacing the Pirellis. I've got 6 different tire threads bookmarked on this forum, and still can't decide which way to go. Like others, most of my driving is highway with some light offroading. Our camping is all at established sites.

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