EV's more expensive to charge than ICE Counterparts?

[NineElectrics]

Your summer over-production in many states gets put in your "solar bank" so in the winter when daylight hours are short and you consume more than you produce.. your utility draws excess kWh from your "solar bank" and you still get a zero dollar utility bill (or just a slight "grid connection" charge) even during the winter. My utility bill has been $14/month for the last 4.5yrs even with three EV's.

Yes, I know how it works. My point is that you'd have to have a very large system in order to produce as much as you consume. I have two EVs and my electric bill is hundreds of dollars a month, yet my roof isn't big enough to accommodate a system large enough to offset it (city dweller). So, at least in my case, there would always be an opportunity cost to charging at home. Now, I admit, my case isn't everyone's case--but A/C costs a lot of power, and EVs draw a lot. I think I'm closer to the average homeowner than you are.

If your break-even is 20-30 yrs- you made a terrible deal on your system and did no homework before purchasing your system.
My original break-even on my system was 7.5yrs, but with recent utility rate increases.. it's now under 7yrs. I have 43 panels.

Good point, my figures are out of date. The national average for solar ROI is fifteen years. Not 7.5, which is a great deal. Definitely not average.

I didn't make a "terrible deal" or "do no homework" (tell yourself what happens when you assume) but geography and roof size do play a role. I don't have solar, as the numbers haven't worked out every time I've checked. And, until recently, the systems became so much cheaper every year that there was no financial penalty for punting until the next year. Thanks to COVID and China that trend is kaput, alas.

Grid tied systems don't work like that.. if the grid is down.. your grid-tied system is down as well to prevent energizing downed power lines and electrocuting utility workers during restoration operations.

You can combine battery storage with net metering. I would pay extra for battery storage. Disaster preparedness helps with the otherwise terrible economics in my case.

Sponsored

 

[NY_Rob]

My house will still have power if the power is down. I flip a switch to cut the connection, but my house stays online with the solar production.

What happens when clouds roll by.. your power goes out then comes back on again? Unless you have a battery wall BU that you didn't mention?

 

[csharp]

What happens when clouds roll by.. your power goes out then comes back on again? Unless you have a battery wall BU that you didn't mention?

Correct, it goes down when the sun goes down. Your point was that when power goes out you can never have power with a solar system which wasnt true.

 

[Dark-Fx]

What happens when clouds roll by.. your power goes out then comes back on again? Unless you have a battery wall BU that you didn't mention?

You still get 10-25% output on cloudy days. If your system is sized to cover all of your loads, including charging an EV, that pretty much means you can still just do anything as long as you leave off all the high energy consumers. Specific EVSEs are designed to work with the solar system and use whatever is left over to charge a connected EV.

 

[NY_Rob]

Correct, it goes down when the sun goes down. Your point was that when power goes out you can never have power with a solar system which wasnt true.

I was referring to a common grid-tied system as found in 99.9% of all grid-tied installs which does not have that ability.
I am aware of the new Enphase IQ8 microinverters that are grid-agnostic.. but they are so new hardly any have been deployed so far and install details are hard to find.

How is your system setup as it's completely atypical for a grid-tied system to be able to feed direct PV into a home with the grid down. I'd love to hear the details? Are you using a battery backup?

 

[fhteagle]

Grid tied systems don't work like that.. if the grid is down.. your grid-tied system is down

Moral of the story, don't buy grid tied only systems. There are too many that are certified to do auto islanding now.

Sol-Ark and Storz based on Deye inverters have done this for years. It only takes 4 car batteries to keep the system live when it goes cloudy. Obviously that's not much storage, so yes you could pay for more battery capacity and/or feed in a fossil powered generator seamlessly as well. LFP batteries that are UL listed with those inverters are less than $2k/5kWh if you can get them without too much installer markup. $900/5kWh if you'd be comfortable DIY building the battery bank.

EG4 15K unit will do basically the same thing for 60% of the cost for the inverter. But their UPS changeover time is a little bit slower.

SolarEdge has auto islanding now too AFAIK. Generac has it if you buy the right combination of boxes? No idea about Enphase, I am not interested in their ecosystem at all.

 

[87Ducks]

I read articles like this occasionally and am genuinely interested if their conclusions jive with y'all's experience.

I traded a 2016 F150 for my R1T. My fuel cost on the F150 got around 17 mpg across 135k miles. At $3.50, that's around 20 cents a mile. With my Rivian, I am averaging 2.1 mi/KWh across 22k miles which works out to around 5 cents a mile if I charge at the house based on a trailing 12 month average electric cost. I'd have to be paying 42 cents/KWh to have parity with my old truck. The national average is 17 according to this BLS table which could be wrong looking at individual regions. The high is SOCal at 47 cents per KWh and gasoline there is substantially higher than $3.50/gal. Articles like this are aggravating to read because they key in on (from my experience) is a completely fabricated shortfall of EVs. There are enough legitimate issues with EVs that there is no reason to make up statistics to sway potential buyers. My Rivian is 100% the right car for me, but all you have to do is look at a Buccee's and you will know that our electric grid is a long way from supporting a world where most road trips are taken in EVs.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-charging-cost-versus-gas-car-truck-suv-2023-7

I saw that article and call BS on it. I have around 7K on my R1T and have maybe spent $200 to charge, not to mention spending $0.00 on oil changes. I usually charge at home but even at the inflated prices of 3rd party stations, I think it is still less than gas.

 

[csharp]

I was referring to a common grid-tied system as found in 99.9% of all grid-tied installs which does not have that ability.
I am aware of the new Enphase IQ8 microinverters that are grid-agnostic.. but they are so new hardly any have been deployed so far and install details are hard to find.

How is your system setup as it's completely atypical for a grid-tied system to be able to feed direct PV into a home with the grid down. I'd love to hear the details? Are you using a battery backup?

That's actually what I have. I have 27 IQ8s.
No battery backup right now. Will wait a few years for technology to catch up and for prices to come down / capabilities to go up.

 

[NY_Rob]

That's actually what I have. I have 27 IQ8s.
No battery backup right now. Will wait a few years for technology to catch up and for prices to come down / capabilities to go up.

Makes sense... I have 43 IQ7+ micros as the IQ8's weren't available when I put my system in Jan 2019.

My lifetime (4.5yrs on this system) production/consumption values are below, and owning three EV's I certainly can't complain as my production is still way ahead of usage at this point... but I'd sure love the ability to use the panels to power some loads during the daytime if the grid went down using IQ8's.

 

[shap]

I saw that article and call BS on it. I have around 7K on my R1T and have maybe spent $200 to charge, not to mention spending $0.00 on oil changes. I usually charge at home but even at the inflated prices of 3rd party stations, I think it is still less than gas.

I think the real numbers are a bit different for us in Austin, TX:

For example, to charge R1T to drive 100 miles at home with Austin Energy (0.12c per kWh) - is 41kW * 0.12c = $4.92.
To charge R1T to drive 100 miles at a public charger (EVGo) (0.42c per kWh) - is 41kW * 0.42c = $17.22
Same size truck will use 5 gallons of 87-rated gasoline, with a current price of $3.2 in Austin: 5*3.2=$16

As for oil changes and other maintenance - we pay another 200$ EV tax in TX, plus tire wear is accelerated, adding between $200-$500 per year. 3d party charges can go up to 1$ per kW, but usually between 40c and 70c. Anything beyond 40c will be more expensive than gasoline in TX.

BTW, for 4k miles, only home charging, I already paid more than $200. You need to pay about 6c per kW to be a lucky one. Unfortunately - no way to do this with Austin Energy.

 

[csharp]

Makes sense... I have 43 IQ7+ micros as the IQ8's weren't available when I put my system in Jan 2019.

My lifetime (4.5yrs on this system) production/consumption values are below, and owning three EV's I certainly can't complain as my production is still way ahead of usage at this point... but I'd sure love the ability to use the panels to power some loads during the daytime if the grid went down using IQ8's.

We unfortunately don't have the roof layout or non-shaded ground property for more panels, so at 27 panels we are still running around 60% solar and 40% grid dependance. I wish we could add more panels, but sadly there is no more room.

 

[Joel]

I read articles like this occasionally and am genuinely interested if their conclusions jive with y'all's experience.

I traded a 2016 F150 for my R1T. My fuel cost on the F150 got around 17 mpg across 135k miles. At $3.50, that's around 20 cents a mile. With my Rivian, I am averaging 2.1 mi/KWh across 22k miles which works out to around 5 cents a mile if I charge at the house based on a trailing 12 month average electric cost. I'd have to be paying 42 cents/KWh to have parity with my old truck. The national average is 17 according to this BLS table which could be wrong looking at individual regions. The high is SOCal at 47 cents per KWh and gasoline there is substantially higher than $3.50/gal. Articles like this are aggravating to read because they key in on (from my experience) is a completely fabricated shortfall of EVs. There are enough legitimate issues with EVs that there is no reason to make up statistics to sway potential buyers. My Rivian is 100% the right car for me, but all you have to do is look at a Buccee's and you will know that our electric grid is a long way from supporting a world where most road trips are taken in EVs.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-charging-cost-versus-gas-car-truck-suv-2023-7

But what do you think is going to happen if and when all things are electric. People will no longer have competition to keep pricing down.

 

[Joel]

We unfortunately don't have the roof layout or non-shaded ground property for more panels, so at 27 panels we are still running around 60% solar and 40% grid dependance. I wish we could add more panels, but sadly there is no more room.

I don’t know if you have noticed but most power companies are restricting the amount of solar on residential. In VA on average the max system size is 22kw. In Florida max is now 65kw previously it was all 22kw and in NC last I checked it was also 22kw. In a multi BEV home and one 3,000 sq feet or more and that size system is too small to ever come close to zero.

 

[87Ducks]

I think the real numbers are a bit different for us in Austin, TX:

For example, to charge R1T to drive 100 miles at home with Austin Energy (0.12c per kWh) - is 41kW * 0.12c = $4.92.
To charge R1T to drive 100 miles at a public charger (EVGo) (0.42c per kWh) - is 41kW * 0.42c = $17.22
Same size truck will use 5 gallons of 87-rated gasoline, with a current price of $3.2 in Austin: 5*3.2=$16

As for oil changes and other maintenance - we pay another 200$ EV tax in TX, plus tire wear is accelerated, adding between $200-$500 per year. 3d party charges can go up to 1$ per kW, but usually between 40c and 70c. Anything beyond 40c will be more expensive than gasoline in TX.

BTW, for 4k miles, only home charging, I already paid more than $200. You need to pay about 6c per kW to be a lucky one. Unfortunately - no way to do this with Austin Energy.

I havent calculated exactly what I have spent to charge as at this point it really doesnt matter. However if I had purchased a Tundra instead at around 25mpg the gas alone would be between $1200 - $1300. I know i havent spent anywhere near that much to charge. Of course gas is more expensive in Oregon than Texas

 

[csharp]

I don’t know if you have noticed but most power companies are restricting the amount of solar on residential. In VA on average the max system size is 22kw. In Florida max is now 65kw previously it was all 22kw and in NC last I checked it was also 22kw. In a multi BEV home and one 3,000 sq feet or more and that size system is too small to ever come close to zero.

I did not know that. We never came close to worrying about max size due to space limitations.

Sponsored