F150 Lightning gets nearly $10K in price cuts

[Yossarian]

The battery isn’t the problem, the new 2023 income limit for tax credit is the real issue.

adjusted gross income (AGI) may not exceed:

• $300,000 for married couples filing jointly
• $225,000 for heads of households
• $150,000 for all other filers

This...

In many areas of the county; $300k just isn't what it used to be...

I would think that if you are above those thresholds, the tax credit falls into the nice to have but not really necessary category. I'd like to be in position to know that for sure however.

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[j.w.s]

https://www.f150lightningforum.com/2023/07/17/2023-f-150-lightning-gets-price-cuts-across-all-trims/

We badly need lower cost EVs, so good news all around.

For Rivian, if the demand for the R1T drops a bit as a result of this or the Cybertruck then you decide to shift over to making more R1S, for which there is a hefty backlog of demand.

 

[Longreach]

It seems there are 3 major EV truck buying groups out there:

- People buying trucks to be trucks, including work trucks. They’re going to buy Lightnings, Silverados and eRams. Can’t see that changing much.

- The Teslerati crowd and obsessive sci-fi readers will buy the Cybertruck. Some lifestyle buyers could end up here too. Don’t under estimate the ”cool“ perception, even if it is an acquired taste.

- The so called lifestyle recreational buyers, which includes the affluent wannabes buying Rivians, the posers buying Hummers, as well as the hard core outdoors people who are buying a Rivian but really wanted a Toyota EV. This is Rivian’s current home base, they need to work hard to maintain dominance here.

There is also a fourth group, perhaps the largest group of all. It includes moderate income working people from all 3 groups above who cannot afford any of these expensive EVs. These guys are buying sub-$30k Maverick trucks, including hybrids, because of affordability. Ford has tripled production and still can’t keep up. This should be a sobering observation for any EV truck manufacturer, including Rivian.

 

[kylealden]

Until Rivian has significant unsold inventory (little evidence that this is the case), they absolutely should not be cutting prices. Remember that this puts the lightning well above its "launch" pricing from last year.

There are more R1Ts on the road than Lightnings, Hummer EVs, and Cybertrucks (lol) combined, and Rivian is still primarily manufacturing constrained from both a margins and sales perspective. No sense chasing prices and devaluing the brand in one move since it won't increase volume.

Price cuts likely make sense down the road as the ramp gets more serious, especially for the dual-motor trims, but IMO it's too early.

 

[MGA]

I doubt that Ford and GM (and some other traditional brands) will last long in the epoch of EV cars. These companies were struggling for decades, with some improvements sometimes, but they don't have their own values, don't have ethos, don't have "ideology", they are moving just by inertia.

 

[EBEG]

I would think that if you are above those thresholds, the tax credit falls into the nice to have but not really necessary category. I'd like to be in position to know that for sure however.

I get why no one feels sorry for people who are phased out of EV tax credits. However, that doesn't mean the loss of the EV tax credit doesn't affect decisions.

If the point of the EV tax credit is to move more people to EVs, it makes no sense to phase out higher earners. Without the EV tax credit, buyers who have significant financial resources are less likely to buy an EV. Whether we like it or not, high earners have pushed and are pushing EV adoption.

Since money is still very much an object to many people who are phased out of the EV tax credit (myself included), not having the benefit of the EV tax credit hurts the value proposition of EVs. I would almost certainly get another EV if I could get the EV tax credit again. Without it, I'm not sure.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

I would think that if you are above those thresholds, the tax credit falls into the nice to have but not really necessary category. I'd like to be in position to know that for sure however.

I'm above those thresholds and the tax credit isn't make or break for me but for what I already pay in taxes it's a slap in the face that I can't get the credit. I don't get why the people who pay the most taxes are being cut out of the credit.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

Are people really cross shopping between a Rivian R1T and a Lightning?

if I wanted more of a truck I would have gotten a F150 Lightning, but I didn't want a truck so that's why I got the Rivian R1T.

Sure I could have compromised and gotten a F150 Lightning. If that was the only option then maybe I would have.

The Cybertruck will likely be a bigger contender for the R1T as neither vehicle is really a truck. But, at the same time it could potentially help R1T sales. I think it gets people excited for the market segment.

A good example of this is the Model Y. It sells lot hotcakes, but it actually benefits the R1S as owners of the Y are trading up.

Quite frankly I don't think much will change for Rivian. The R1T was and will always be a niche vehicle where the primary vehicles are the R1S and the Cargo Van. Both of those will sell really well.

 

[teartags]

Are people really cross shopping between a Rivian R1T and a Lightning?

Yes, they are. I am.
The Lightning was #1 on my next vehicle list. My big hang-up with it was the size. I don't need something that big. But I liked the idea it looks like a normal truck. However, I couldn't even get on a waiting list by the time I was "on board", and then they jacked the prices up.
So I got an early reservation on the Ram. I might need a new vehicle before those ever show up though and the early ones are likely gonna be expounsive.
Then I started looking closer at the R1T even though I (like most people I still talk to) was turned off by the front end and the tiny bed. It occurred to me that the frunk and tunnel are more useful for me though and I started to warm to the front end.
So after scouring this forum for awhile the R1T is still #1 for me. However, the Ford price cut has the Lightning back on the table. I hate stealerships too, but price is a major factor for me. I'm not the guy who has 2nd vehicles that are BMW's, Audi's or tricked out Raptors. I don't have a 2nd vehicle and I'm not rich. This would be BY FAR be the most I've spent on a vehicle. It freaks me out a bit to be honest.
...now if Rivian could just get the crappy music source situation figured out...[/QUOTE]

 

[MDH]

It seems there are 3 major EV truck buying groups out there:

- People buying trucks to be trucks, including work trucks. They’re going to buy Lightnings, Silverados and eRams. Can’t see that changing much.

- The Teslerati crowd and obsessive sci-fi readers will buy the Cybertruck. Some lifestyle buyers could end up here too. Don’t under estimate the ”cool“ perception, even if it is an acquired taste.

- The so called lifestyle recreational buyers, which includes the affluent wannabes buying Rivians, the posers buying Hummers, as well as the hard core outdoors people who are buying a Rivian but really wanted a Toyota EV. This is Rivian’s current home base, they need to work hard to maintain dominance here.

There is also a fourth group, perhaps the largest group of all. It includes moderate income working people from all 3 groups above who cannot afford any of these expensive EVs. These guys are buying sub-$30k Maverick trucks, including hybrids, because of affordability. Ford has tripled production and still can’t keep up. This should be a sobering observation for any EV truck manufacturer, including Rivian.

Interesting take. Rumor mill has the CT configuration and pricing to be unveiled on Wednesday, hence the Ford move yesterday. I believe Tesla will aggressively price the truck ($60K, $70K & $80K) to eat into the traditional (F, GM, S) market. Rivian can't sit there alone at $90K-$95K. I'm guessing the CT will outsell all electric trucks in 2024 although many would not be caught dead in one of them.

 

[bd5400]

Interesting take. Rumor mill has the CT configuration and pricing to be unveiled on Wednesday, hence the Ford move yesterday. I believe Tesla will aggressively price the truck ($60K, $70K & $80K) to eat into the traditional (F, GM, S) market. Rivian can't sit there alone at $90K-$95K. I'm guessing the CT will outsell all electric trucks in 2024 although many would not be caught dead in one of them.

Rivian isn’t sitting out there alone at $90k-$95k. That’s exactly why the dual motor exists and starts at like $79k with the large battery pack.

These threads always fascinate me because so many people assume that the only way Rivian can sell the R1T is if it’s the cheapest option or if it’s the ONLY option. There’s a noticeable lack of confidence in the R1T being a product that can independently justify its cost.

 

[Ralph]

Both companies have challenges, but those challenges are as different as the products.

If I recall, Rivian's IPO stated they were looking at capturing perhaps 15% of the market over time.

Contrast that with Ford, who I believe said production would be 150,000 this year. And that number has to grow quickly if they hope to maintain their position in the truck market as the EV conversion continues. They sold something like 650,000 ICE F-150s in 2022.

How many vehicles does Rivian need to sell this year between the R1T and R1S? And the following year before the R2 product comes on line? Not near as many as Ford. Rivian's goal is to make it to the R2. Ford's is to convert their customers to their EV, before somebody else does.

None of that means that Rivian's challenges are not real. The increasingly competitive market, higher interest rates and a whole basket of other things are real concerns for all.

 

[Count Orlok]

Interesting take. Rumor mill has the CT configuration and pricing to be unveiled on Wednesday, hence the Ford move yesterday. I believe Tesla will aggressively price the truck ($60K, $70K & $80K) to eat into the traditional (F, GM, S) market. Rivian can't sit there alone at $90K-$95K. I'm guessing the CT will outsell all electric trucks in 2024 although many would not be caught dead in one of them.

does Tesla really think the ct is competition for real trucks and do you really think Ford is so worried about the CybertoY it lower prices? Ford made this price change for very Ford reasons. Lightning demand is slowing at the higher price point. I've seen no evidence that F, GM, and dodge are worried about the CT. Ct is a novelty product.

 

[mkg3]

....Without the EV tax credit, buyers who have significant financial resources are less likely to buy an EV. ...

Just curious - what is the logic behind this statement?

Personally, I wish the government did away with the tax credits all together for EVs. EVs are a better product as a daily driver vehicle for vast majority of people. For those that require longer distances or tow, or some other special needs, keep the ICE, proven, vehicles.

I do not make my decision based on the tax credit. To me, it's a windfall at the taxpayers expense. I don't need it but if the government is giving it out, I'll have to accept (sort of as its just being applied towards next tax year payment).

As a semi-retired person, what I make puts me in a poverty level, and every cent I earn from working goes towards paying estimated taxes to offset my capital gains tax liabilities.

EVs are, easier to operate, little to no maintain to speak of, and have lower total ownership costs. That's the reason why all of our vehicles are being replaced one-by-one by EVs. Not because of tax credit. After our R1S, waiting for true 2-seater sports EV car (looking like 718 EV may be the only choice right now...)

I would argue that those with significant financial resources don't care about the tax credits. They like what they like and it doesn't enter into the considerations. Just look at all the available EVs above the threshold prices. And they are selling quite nicely.

 

[MilliM]

Inflation and supply chain constraints giveth high prices, and high rates taketh them away. I think it's that simple for the vast majority of cars & car companies.

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