The Built In Navigation Solution

[bhopkins]

No real-time traffic information in navigation is a huge problem Rivian needs to fix ASAP. This lack of information cost me an extra hour on my latest trip, when my friends in their Tesla got there by going around the traffic they were aware of via their navigation an hour earlier than me.

It has traffic information and routes around the worst of it. Drove from Plymouth, MI to Saginaw, MI yesterday afternoon. Nav routed me away from I-96 which has construction and was showing up as solid red for a good portion of the route. System routed me through local streets and secondary roads until I connected to I-96 past the construction/traffic bog down. Spouse who was driving separately used Apple Maps to navigate and was given a different route. We both left at the same time and arrived in Saginaw about 5 minutes apart.

So far, no complaints with the nav system!

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[mindstormsguy]

It looks you have as much of an issue with Audi as screen projection. As the owner of an ID.4, another VAG product, I totally understand the frustrations with their choices, “features,“ and near-absent updates.

What I don’t understand is why anyone would argue against screen projection via Android Auto and Apple CarPlay for other people’s use.
1. Everyone gets more options. You are not forced to use it. It’s not a choice of screen projection OR built-in navigation where everyone is locked out of built-in navigation as soon as screen projection is offered on a vehicle.
2. Some people are concerned about much more than just on-road navigation when it comes to screen projection. It is still possible to use built-in navigation while using screen projection for other things, especially when screen projection is presented in a window as can be done on a display as large as the Rivian’s.
3. I think a lot of people rely on navigation for scenarios where range is irrelevant: local driving and established longer routes which aren’t close to range limitations but where they just want to see traffic info. There is no advantage to Rivian’s tightly-integrated navigation in those scenarios. I can see myself using Google or Apple Maps for those cases and Rivian’s navigation when taking long road trips which require charging.
4. If Rivian doesn’t provide navigation during a drive that doesn’t mean they lose access to all data about that drive. Rivian can collect information about each drive like start point, route, speed, and end point. Just as they can if you take a trip without using navigation today. This is the same whether people use screen projection or a phone with a mount. Unless you lock the vehicle in Park until a route is planned in Rivian navigation, you aren’t going to force some people to use Rivian navigation. I don’t know what limitations there are on the collection of data provided by AA and CP as turn directions are shown but, if allowed, Rivian could collect data from that, too.

I know much of what I said was Audi-specific. But It's not like Audi is the only manufacturer that doesn't treat CP/AA as first-class integration. My point is just to illustrate that just having CP it's automatically some panacea.

I'm also not trying to tell people that they're wrong for wanting CP. I want carplay. I want to be able to stream from Apple Music. I want to use the podcasting app that I've used for ages, and that will keep track of what I have been listening too, even if I'm listening outside of my Rivian. I get it. I'm not trying to argue what is best for everyone. Of course everyone has unique use cases and preferences.

I do think you're underestimating the value of data though. Data is what makes tech companies profitable. This is obvious for social media, but it's not just social media. Every tech company thrives on consuming as much consumer data as possible. Rivian has even said as much. They don't want to just be a car company. They want to be a software services company.

Just tracking where a vehicle is is not the same as knowing where the user was intending to go, knowing where the user chose to ignore your turn guidance, knowing where traffic was better/worse than you thought, knowing where the user ignored your suggestion to stop and charge because they figured "eeh, I can make it". I'm certain there are much less obvious things too. Getting better at suggesting auto-complete for address entry, and crap like that. Rivian doesn't get this info if you're using third party nav.

When I suggest that I like the Rivian approach better than Audi's, I'm not saying I wouldn't like carplay. I'm just saying that there are going to be pros and cons no mater whose infotainment you use, and I'm optimistically believing that Rivian will work out better on the balance.

I think it's also worth noting that many people rave about Tesla's infotainment. I think Rivian is on track to be the same. I don't know that any other auto manufacturer has the same fanfare, despite basically every other manufacturer having carplay at this point. Rivian is trying to do the "ecosystem" thing. You don't just buy a car, where you're on your own to select a charging network, on your own for selecting a nav app, you're on your own to buy a flashlight to keep in the car (?). You buy into an experience. You get RAN (eventually), you get a thoughtfully designed infotainment (you get a flashlight that charges in the door). It's akin to Apple vs "IBM compatible". If you go with Apple you're going to have to like the "Apple way", because they're not going to make it easy for you to leave the walled garden. But if you buy into it, you're going to have a really cohesive user experience.

There's no doubt in my mind that this is what Rivian is going for. Right or wrong, that's up to each individual to decide.

 

[ja_kub_sz]

Bingo! Google Maps is my favorite in day-to-day situations since it show real-time options at intersections including the time impact of that option (the gray paths that say things like "similar ETA" or "+2 minutes"). I find that fantastic on normal driving and no one else does it that way. It lets me make educated choices to take alternate routes as I approach intersections when all other nav systems just show you their "optimum" choice.

Whatever happened to just "being early"?

Or in my case... 10 minutes late ?

 

[rodhx]

Whatever happened to just "being early"?

Or in my case... 10 minutes late ?

I'm one of those for which being on time means being early ?

 

[Scoiatael]

It looks you have as much of an issue with Audi as screen projection. As the owner of an ID.4, another VAG product, I totally understand the frustrations with their choices, “features,“ and near-absent updates.

What I don’t understand is why anyone would argue against screen projection via Android Auto and Apple CarPlay for other people’s use.
1. Everyone gets more options. You are not forced to use it. It’s not a choice of screen projection OR built-in navigation where everyone is locked out of built-in navigation as soon as screen projection is offered on a vehicle.
2. Some people are concerned about much more than just on-road navigation when it comes to screen projection. It is still possible to use built-in navigation while using screen projection for other things, especially when screen projection is presented in a window as can be done on a display as large as the Rivian’s.
3. I think a lot of people rely on navigation for scenarios where range is irrelevant: local driving and established longer routes which aren’t close to range limitations but where they just want to see traffic info. There is no advantage to Rivian’s tightly-integrated navigation in those scenarios. I can see myself using Google or Apple Maps for those cases and Rivian’s navigation when taking long road trips which require charging.
4. If Rivian doesn’t provide navigation during a drive that doesn’t mean they lose access to all data about that drive. Rivian can collect information about each drive like start point, route, speed, and end point. Just as they can if you take a trip without using navigation today. This is the same whether people use screen projection or a phone with a mount. Unless you lock the vehicle in Park until a route is planned in Rivian navigation, you aren’t going to force some people to use Rivian navigation. I don’t know what limitations there are on the collection of data provided by AA and CP as turn directions are shown but, if allowed, Rivian could collect data from that, too.

Plus AA and Carplay would allow you to do something simple like sending/reading texts. Can't believed Rivian launched without that ability.

 

[SoCal Rob]

I know much of what I said was Audi-specific. But It's not like Audi is the only manufacturer that doesn't treat CP/AA as first-class integration. My point is just to illustrate that just having CP it's automatically some panacea.

I'm also not trying to tell people that they're wrong for wanting CP. I want carplay. I want to be able to stream from Apple Music. I want to use the podcasting app that I've used for ages, and that will keep track of what I have been listening too, even if I'm listening outside of my Rivian. I get it. I'm not trying to argue what is best for everyone. Of course everyone has unique use cases and preferences.

I do think you're underestimating the value of data though. Data is what makes tech companies profitable. This is obvious for social media, but it's not just social media. Every tech company thrives on consuming as much consumer data as possible. Rivian has even said as much. They don't want to just be a car company. They want to be a software services company.

Just tracking where a vehicle is is not the same as knowing where the user was intending to go, knowing where the user chose to ignore your turn guidance, knowing where traffic was better/worse than you thought, knowing where the user ignored your suggestion to stop and charge because they figured "eeh, I can make it". I'm certain there are much less obvious things too. Getting better at suggesting auto-complete for address entry, and crap like that. Rivian doesn't get this info if you're using third party nav.

When I suggest that I like the Rivian approach better than Audi's, I'm not saying I wouldn't like carplay. I'm just saying that there are going to be pros and cons no mater whose infotainment you use, and I'm optimistically believing that Rivian will work out better on the balance.

I think it's also worth noting that many people rave about Tesla's infotainment. I think Rivian is on track to be the same. I don't know that any other auto manufacturer has the same fanfare, despite basically every other manufacturer having carplay at this point. Rivian is trying to do the "ecosystem" thing. You don't just buy a car, where you're on your own to select a charging network, on your own for selecting a nav app, you're on your own to buy a flashlight to keep in the car (?). You buy into an experience. You get RAN (eventually), you get a thoughtfully designed infotainment (you get a flashlight that charges in the door). It's akin to Apple vs "IBM compatible". If you go with Apple you're going to have to like the "Apple way", because they're not going to make it easy for you to leave the walled garden. But if you buy into it, you're going to have a really cohesive user experience.

There's no doubt in my mind that this is what Rivian is going for. Right or wrong, that's up to each individual to decide.

First, I think we agree more than we disagree.

For the record, I don’t think AA and CP are panaceas. Implementing them, however, will allow Rivian to dedicate developer resources to what is important to Rivian while also making the greatest number of customers happy. Texting, non-Rivian music, podcasts, and a host of other things all get supported via screen projection so Rivian can make the most people happy with the least effort.

Then Rivian can concentrate on best-in-class EV navigation so that all of us WANT to use it. They can even develop their ecosystem to support other apps in the UI rather than via screen projection. Maybe instead of a proprietary platform they allow for Alexa Skill support to do this by using some of the Rivian display as if it were an Echo Show. I bet it would be a lot easier to use existing skills or get 3rd party developers to tweak their existing skills than to start from scratch and expect everyone to hop on the RivianOS bandwagon.

I understand the value of the data. I’m just speculating that a lot of people, if given the choice between Rivian Navigation and no routing on the main display may go with no routing on the main display and simply use their phone. Maybe with a mount, maybe with it on the charging pad, maybe holding it I n their hand the entire time they’re driving. Ugh. Rivian still wont get that sweet, sweet data they crave, but they’ve demonstrated that they’d rather try (and probably fail) to force people to do things the Rivian way if people are dead set on doing it a familiar way.

Getting to the walled garden issue, Rivian is behaving like Apple used to behave on iOS and iPadOS. Apple allows people to choose default apps for their browser, mail client, etc. now. Even stubborn Apple figured out that dictating which app to use by default for core services will not make as many customers happy.

Ultimately, the typical person spends far more time interacting with the data and screen on their mobile device than the data and screen on their automobile. I don’t see Rivian or any other manufacturer changing that in the near future. I think that omitting screen projection is not the best choice, especially as there is increasing competition in the EV space and the competitors offer it.

 

[njech7]

I think folks discount the fact that software is hard. Good software is at least. And anytime you ADD another piece of 3rd party technology, your software and test teams have to spend time understanding the integration points and testing through all the potential iterations of such. Rivian decided to make a ground up effort, based on a multitude of factors I'm sure. My guess is they spoke with all the major mapping companies, talked with Apple and Google and decided for their development and all the other development choices they had to make, they felt like adding more choices were more painful than they were worth.

I have used CarPlay and Android Auto in multiple cars, some wired, some wireless. It's never been fully reliable. Some better than others. Let's give it a year and see where Rivian is with their home spun software. I get that means some pain and frustration for the early adopters, but there will always be some of that for all early adopters in different forms.

 

[mgc0216]

So, yes the Rivian has real time traffic but it's not as robust as say Waze.

As an example we were headed to a concert last night. Rivian routed us on this really weird route through town vs using the interstate. Time initially appeared to be accurate until near the end.

Rivian did not account for road closures around the venue - which Waze actually did know about (I discovered this after powering up Waze to rescue us). In the end we lost 20-25 minutes driving a big circle around the venue and approaching it from the north (we had driven up from the south).

Definitely suboptimal.

 

[SeaGeo]

Rivian did not account for road closures around the venue - which Waze actually did know about (I discovered this after powering up Waze to rescue us). In the end we lost 20-25 minutes driving a big circle around the venue and approaching it from the north (we had driven up from the south).

I had a similar issue about a week ago. But google didn't know about the closure either.

I've also had a couple of times so far where it has predicted ToA better than Google did. As well as google doing better than Rivian. Rivian also seems to generally offer some alternative routes that I prefer over what Google offers me, which has been interesting to see and try to force Google into offering up to check Rivian's duration estimates.

The nav traffic data will continue to get better. And like you said, it's there. It's just not perfect. But no solution is.

 

[Inkedsphynx]

Talked to a buddy of mine yesterday that is interviewing for a high level position at a new VW Automotive initiative. Their intent is within the next few years to bring all their software development in-house, and they're working on building a vehicle OS that can be made common across their entire fleet. The intent is for it to be a base OS that can be modularly added on to, from my understanding. That may mean it can integrate with AA/CP, but it also may mean they build in those functionalities to the base system.

Rivian and Tesla are hardly the only ones developing their own solutions. I think we'll see more of it in the future, not less. I think we need to expect that every legacy manufacturer is soon going to realize that being in the EV world makes them a software company as much as a hardware company. I think most of them will see the benefit to bringing development in-house and building an 'ecosystem', especially if it drives higher customer retention due to lock-in.

 

[EzMev]

Huge issue...sending/receiving texts is a major use case. I have to imagine they are coming up with a solution...way too big of a hole to last for long.

Plus AA and Carplay would allow you to do something simple like sending/reading texts. Can't believed Rivian launched without that ability.

 

[Autolycus]

So, yes the Rivian has real time traffic but it's not as robust as say Waze.

As an example we were headed to a concert last night. Rivian routed us on this really weird route through town vs using the interstate. Time initially appeared to be accurate until near the end.

Rivian did not account for road closures around the venue - which Waze actually did know about (I discovered this after powering up Waze to rescue us). In the end we lost 20-25 minutes driving a big circle around the venue and approaching it from the north (we had driven up from the south).

Definitely suboptimal.

I’ve had Waze try to send me down a street that had been closed for months. There was literally no pavement for several hundred yards of the street in a downtown area. Drop off from the paved sections to the unpaved sections was easily a foot and a half.

It was the first time in a couple years I’d given Waze a try after a number of times Waze sent me on random roads around small neighborhoods instead of the main highway. It wasn’t that traffic was gridlocked on the highway either.

 

[SANZC02]

Huge issue...sending/receiving texts is a major use case. I have to imagine they are coming up with a solution...way too big of a hole to last for long.

I had my Model S 4 years before Tesla added that feature in an OTA update.

 

[EzMev]

I certainly hope they prioritize it...major use case, and from a UI/API standpoint well understood, done before, etc....

I had my Model S 4 years before Tesla added that feature in an OTA update.

 

[LaunchGreen]

Anyone know if there is a way to provide corrections? Are they using openmaps or something? They have the wrong address for a major high school near me.

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