Why R1T outselling Lightning 4-1?

[Zoidz]

I wanted a Lightning and test drove one back in Jan 2023 as I was getting sick of waiting for my R1S.

Loved it. But the reason I didn't buy the Lighting was - the dealership.

They wanted a markup and had a half-dozen on the lot (the one I was interested in was a demo and had been there 9+ months). With the markup it was a terrible value on an overpriced vehicle already - Ford had jacked the price up $8K a few months earlier.

With price cuts and dealers realizing markups are gone... sales have spiked but it's too late. Folks like me have moved on.

https://electrek.co/2023/12/01/ford-f-150-lightning-breaks-monthly-sales-record-november/

I suspect that the dealer markup/gouging that took place in the early days stifled sales and sent potential buyers elsewhere. I personally feel that Ford corporate screwed up big time by allowing that to happen. Ford had the opportunity to make a big initial impact and blew it.

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[Cosmacelf]

Ford was being screwed over by their own dealers LONG before the latest union contract situation. Same thing with the other members of the "big 3". It's been this way for a long time.

Years ago we went to a Chevy dealer because a specific Volt was listed in their inventory. We had called ahead and they said to come in and ask for a specific sales weirdo. We get there and he immediately starts trying to talk her out of the Volt and into buying a Silverado! After about 20 minutes of that he realized she wasn't going for that and he said he would locate the Volt and bring it around for a walkthrough, test drive. They took 45 minutes to "find" the Volt, and the walkthrough was probably the worst I've ever seen. He was clearly not trained on any of the features of it - didn't know the range or the type of engine it had. Knew nothing about charging or safety features. So he let us take it for a drive and we tested out everything we already knew about it.

She bought it, but we also had to sit through another attempt to get her to switch to an Impala and then a Camaro. Then came the requisite wait to meet with the financing department even though she had her own financing. The entire dealer network for all these brands are actively working against them while they attempt to adapt to the future. So if they fail there is plenty of blame to go around.

Yeah, I just heard a Ford ad on the TV touting various pickup options. Towards the end, they showed and quickly talked about the Lightning's household backup power option. Made it sound and look cool. I would bet that everyone that walks into a Ford dealership asking about that option gets told about why its so expensive and a hassle and hey, look at what we have on the lot?

In other words, the Lightning is used to get people onto lots. Converting those into Lightning buyers is the last thing they care about, as long as they buy a Ford product.

 

[yosupitscel]

I suspect that the dealer markup/gouging that took place in the early days stifled sales and sent potential buyers elsewhere. I personally feel that Ford corporate screwed up big time by allowing that to happen. Ford had the opportunity to make a big initial impact and blew it.

This is what happened to me. Had the reservation for both the Lightning and the Rivian. Ford emailed me first inviting me to head to the dealer to place the order. But the dealer wanted a 10K markup and wasn't willing to sell at MSRP. I even tried 2 other dealers in the area and 10k was actually the smallest of the markups. They flat out said if I don't buy it at the marked up price someone else will. So I cancelled the reservation and waited another 6 months until I got the Rivian email.

It's funny, the Ford dealer called me like 3 months ago to ask me if I was still interested because they have some on the lot and they are offering incentives now. Too late, they lost the sale and I'm very pleased with my R1T. The dealership model is so outdated. Buying the Rivian and my wife's Tesla was such a pleasant experience.

 

[vandy1981]

I took delivery of both my Rivian and a Lightning in July of 2022 after being the first allocation in Nashville. I purchased the Lightning about 2 weeks before I received the Rivian. My neighbors were super confused about me suddenly having 2 pickups in the driveway after driving a BMW station wagon for the last 6 years.

I will say - the Lightning is super smooth, extremely quiet and had a very compliant and locomotive like quality to its drive train. I imagine a very strong highway cruiser as well and the Blue Cruise was just bonkers good.

I kept my Rivian and sold the Lightning because of what a lot of you mentioned here. The R1T was more forward looking, it was more playful in its driving characteristics and as a city dweller, I could actually park it without damaging it (most of the time).

I loved the Lightning and if the R1T didn't exist, I would have kept it. I do think there is a market for it as it is a wonderfully capable vehicle but the current political climate and fear are keeping its market at bay.

I sometimes wish Ford had kept their stake in Rivian and their plans for Rivian to build a Lincoln. I think it would have been an excellent marriage of SoCal thinking and Detroit know how that would have benefited the entire industry.

We took delivery of our Lightning in Nashville in June 2022 and sold it in October 2023 when we bought our R1S Max Pack. We loved the Lightning and ultimately sold it because we wanted longer range and towing capability in a smaller package. The R1S is much better around town, parking lots and twisty roads, but the Lightning was an amazing highway cruiser because of the smooth ride, quiet cabin and excellent driver assist.

I think Ford made the right decision in adapting the ICE F150 for the Lightning. It allowed them to get it out on the market earlier at a lower price. Here we are almost 2 years later and the dual motor CT is slower, has only marginally better range and costs $10,000 more. The CT has air suspension, 4 wheel steer and (probably) a better charging curve, but it's not that much better than Ford's offering, at least on paper.

 

[BigSkies]

There's plenty of reasons to hate on the Ford dealership experience.

I fully expect the F150 to sell better once both companies scale production and dealer markups are gone.

The simple reason is price. You can currently get a Lightning XLT with extended range battery for $70k and it qualifies for the $7,500 federal rebate. So you're looking at a net price in the low $60k's.

Depending on options and accessories most people buy (spare, crossbars, etc), most R1T's will be well in the $90k range and hard to get any incentives for.

While the details will vary based on individual option preferences, the F150 can be configured to be significantly cheaper. The market for ~$65k trucks is MUCH larger than the market for ~$90k trucks.

 

[Zorg]

I fully expect the CT pricing to come down once they really ramp up production. The market for $90k trucks is less than 250k units per year.

 

[Sgt Beavis]

Aside from dealer markups, which really hurt the Lightning a lot, Ford did themselves no favors with the pricing and packaging of the truck. Ford promised a $40K truck in the Pro trim but barely delivered on them. That left a sour taste for a lot of potential buyers but they really shot themselves in the foot with packaging on the XLT. The base XLT price was a little under $70K but to get the extended range battery, you had to buy a luxury package that pushed the price much closer to $80K. At that point you should just get a Lariat. IMO, if Ford had sold the extended range XLT without that luxury package, they would have performed well in sales. Ford is FINALLY correcting that mistake with the 2024 model year where they will introduce the ’Flash‘ trim. It’s basically an extended range XLT for around $70K. That Flash trim also has a lot of good upgrade that should help with getting the advertised 300mi+ range.

 

[SDH]

The market for ~$65k trucks is MUCH larger than the market for ~$90k trucks.

If you're referring to EV trucks, then I'm not so sure (no data to back this up). My hypothesis being that the kind of folks who want a 'cheaper' truck for truck stuff (your gardeners, pool cleaners, ranchers, builders etc.) are better off with an ICE truck, largely because they can be had for less than $65k, without the complication and hassle factor of an EV.

The $90k market is more like people on here (I know I'm generalizing here) , with more disposable income and most likely are running 2+ cars. I would argue there are more of this group as a market for EV trucks, than there is for the market of true truck owners who are thinking of switching to an EV truck.

This to me is why the Lightening is not doing well (as well as the shitty dealers). The Lightening is neither fish nor fowl. Most of the 'traditional truck owners' aren't going to make the switch at current prices and with current charging/towing standards. Someone with $90k to burn is probably more likely to want something more special than a Lightening (heck I'm dying to get a Raptor R!).

 

[Runamok]

https://electrek.co/2023/12/04/ford-sets-ev-sales-record-nov-lightning-becomes-best-seller/

F-150 Lightning sales more than doubled (+113%) in November, with 4,393 units sold. With the growth, Ford’s Lightning is the bestselling electric pickup through November, edging out the Rivian R1T.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

I expect the Lighting to consistently outsell the R1T once Ford works out all the out of the gate issues.

It certainly had a bumpy launch and quality control issues.

Mostly they simply got the pricing and configurations wrong, and the dealers were trying to gouge people. A lot of that has been changing recently and they just announced the new Flash trim.

At the end of the day it comes down to the fact that the Lighting is a very competent truck that's an actual truck. it's not like the R1T where its adventure first and truck second. The lighting is a truck first.

People that want to do work with their truck, and they want an EV will get a lighting.

People like me who don't want to do work will get an R1T.

Also, keep in mind that its selling to people who are a lot more hesitant towards EV's. A lot of us R1T owners came from Tesla or other passenger EV's so we're used to EV's.

It just took longer for the typical Ford owner to warm up to the lighting.

I also expect Ford to slowly introduce lower priced variant for contractors.

As to dealers they're probably starting to realize that new EV's come with all sorts of problems. So they can simply bill Ford for the warranty work. Imagine if Rivian had dealers. Those dealers would be making bank off Rivian.

 

[Cosmacelf]

If I was to summarize, first, Lightning and R1T have sold in about equal numbers. The Ford dealer "experience", with hassles and markups has been a deterrent. Ford got the range/pricing/trim combo wrong and just fixed that with the 2024 Flash trim (although this might have been intentional on Ford's part to extract the most $$ from an expect slow initial ramp).

It does appear from media reports that Ford sold fewer Lightnings than they expected, and so did Rivian for that matter.

On the Ford side, seems it had mostly to do with demand, for the aforementioned reasons.

On the Rivian side, partly it has been production constrained, but also partly marketing. My guess is that while Tesla is now well known, Rivian is where Tesla was 10 year ago from a brand perspective. Very few people even in the target market know about it. I suspect the Cybertruck buzz and Tesla's marketing efforts will spill over and help R1T sales since no one who orders a CT now will get it for 2+ years, and once people research EV trucks, Rivian and Lightning will obviously pop up.

Just FYI, there's a debate in the Tesla community about how fast the Cybertruck ramp will be. Some expect 125K Cybertrucks to be sold in 2024. I personally think more like 50K, if even that. My lower estimate is not due to demand, they have a large order backlog, but due to production constraints, they have tons of new technology there and they need to prove it on the road before they ramp. It'll be interesting watching those numbers.

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