Very disappointing snow experience

[Whmorken]

R1T on 22" all-season tires: I live in the Utah mountains and we have 3+ feet of snow on the ground, so I have driven up and down the mountain passes to the ski resort 12 mins away many times, with little issue. However, today we headed up to Snowbird as the snow was falling hard. It had turned from rain to slush to snow and was admittedly slicker than normal, but as we progressed up a steeper incline, I couldn't keep the truck from sliding sideways as the tires slipped. The truck slowed to 8 to 9 mph and wouldn't go faster. I couldn't even make the tires spin if I wanted to. It was like it went into a turtle mode but had no indicators. I decided to put it in Sand mode as none of the other modes seemed to help, as I hadn't updated the software to have access to a Snow mode yet. I barely made it to snowbird. Yes, i don't have dedicated snow tires and I am sure I will get a lot of "duh" comments saying they aren't meant for snow and they are also 22" but it is disappointing performance regardless. Unlike a traditional 4x4 (5 Jeep Grand Cherokees in our family over the years), there wasn't that clear sense of the 4x4 doing some extra work despite poor tire grip.

Time to bite the bullet for snow tires.

Lived in Park City for 21 years. Now in Jackson. Awaiting R1S ordered March 2019 with 20” all terrains. I identify. Have an ICE vehicle and an X here deep in the Teton Park and into my 3rd winter here. The ICE has studded tires. No slips so far. The X has winter tires that do slip though not generally. In my circumstances, driving on snow covered dirt roads or on a two lane paved road with snow and ice all winter, plus real storms, got to go studded. Will shop this summer. Looking first at Nokian. P. S. In Park City I used winter tires.

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[DB-EV]

I also live in PC but I have the 20" wheels. The stock AT tires were fine but I got winter tires (Nokian LT3) put on last month and they make a huge difference. Driving yesterday in that mess of wet concrete snow, I was watching cars slip and slide all around me on as I cruised by. I can't imagine not having snow tires up here this winter with how much snow we've had to date, especially if you're driving the canyons or to the Cottonwoods.

Not sure if there are great winter tire options in the 22s?

Did you take the winter tires to a shop and have them swapped on for the ATs? Or did you buy separate wheels?

 

[srnyoung]

Do you feel appropriately berated yet?

 

[Whmorken]

Did you take the winter tires to a shop and have them swapped on for the ATs? Or did you buy separate wheels?

When my Rivian arrives I will get separate 20 inch wheels for new studded winter tires. Long term investment.

 

[W1SE]

Actually, no. But sure not going to sit here in an internet forum & argue with you.

We take off for the trails @ 0600hrs most Sunday mornings out of Azalea, Oregon. We have 2 R1Ts in the group now; you are welcome to come out into the hills with us & lay your theories on as thick as you like.

in your sub conversation with @kylealden

I am genuinely curious. I see you are brand new to this forum and you list a bunch of non-off road vehicles as “your current vehicles” do you own a rivian or do you have an order for one? Or do you take your Tesla, or your spark off road that you do every week at 0600? I am sorry if this comes across rude but we see people that join just to bait other people and that’s what it appears your are doing. If you are a sincere member then I do apologize. This is Just what I see, A new member coming on and spouting how a rivian is not as good. Genuine criticism from people that have a genuine interest is okay.

 

[Thedude]

The quad motor design has some benefits, but tends to perform very poorly in very slippery situations. With a traditional differential design, it allows one wheel on the differential to attempt forward motion, while taking torque away from the other to maintain lateral stability. With no connection between the wheels (the differential), the tendency is for both Wheels on the axle to slip on a quad motor Rivian. This will send you sideways.

 

[bjcleaver]

Did you take the winter tires to a shop and have them swapped on for the ATs? Or did you buy separate wheels?

I just had them swapped at a local tire shop. Had to bring in the pucks for the lift but otherwise it was straightforward. Might consider a second set of wheels when there are more options.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

We see this all the time in Vancouver. 4x or AWD does not compensate for a lack of snow tires. It may help with a certain specific set of circumstances but slick conditions + hills = need snow tires. Disappointing experience for sure, but it's with the tires not the truck.

Easy on our fellow Vancouverites, they know not how to drive.

 

[AxelR]

Fin means “end” in Latin

What about finis then?
Fin

 

[MountainBikeDude]

To cut power to a wheel that is slipping, the wheel must first slip. The damage is done, you are going sideways at that point. I am in a off-roading group with a Rivian in it, many hundreds of hours of experience of how this works in the real world. The R1T does great in many scenarios, but in ultra-low traction, especially when on a side-hill, they are straight-up evil to drive.

Is this not exactly how a traditional differential works with ABS brake control? Power goes to the wheel with the least traction until the computer determines the other wheel/wheels aren't moving, and modulates pressure on the slipping wheel to force the other more planted wheels to turn. On a quad setup, all wheels can immediately have the same power on tap which is then adapted as the vehicle detects lower levels of traction in any given corner. So to an extent, the total opposite of a traditional 4x4 without mechanical lockers.

I think the main factor in your practical evidence in the field or trails is the weight difference between a Rivian and other vehicle(s) you are comparing it to.

Of note, the quad setup does need work to get to the level of a fully locked drivetrain, but it's getting closer

 

[bummin]

No duh from me as you already know some of the fixes. Maybe I missed it in which case I get the “duh” but I think people tend to forget traction settings on vehicles. So many vehicles have aggressive tire slipping programs it is almost dangerous.

Trying to get moving around a corner, or a bit of momentum when things get rough only to have the computer screw up your plans. Sometimes the electronics just make it worse, and remembering to turn off in a situation just takes the brain a moment to remember there is a switch. My 20” Nokians rock by the way, and I don’t really use snow mode with them.

 

[R.I.P.]

Is this not exactly how a traditional differential works with ABS brake control? Power goes to the wheel with the least traction until the computer determines the other wheel/wheels aren't moving, and modulates pressure on the slipping wheel to force the other more planted wheels to turn. On a quad setup, all wheels can immediately have the same power on tap which is then adapted as the vehicle detects lower levels of traction in any given corner. So to an extent, the total opposite of a traditional 4x4 without mechanical lockers.

I think the main factor in your practical evidence in the field or trails is the weight difference between a Rivian and other vehicle(s) you are comparing it to.

Of note, the quad setup does need work to get to the level of a fully locked drivetrain, but it's getting closer

No. I am not talking about traction control. I'm talking about the mechanical ability of an open differential to move torque away from the wheel with traction.

You are in slippery snow or ice. You are on a side hill. Slipping sideways means going into the tree line.

I run a number of different rigs, but all of them have the switchable ability on the dash to unlock the differentials completely and run "open". Under the described conditions, where I absolutely do not want to go sideways, I will reach down flip my switches to full open and try to ease the vehicle across the side hill. Because of the Dynamics of a differential, in virtually every instance the wheels with the most weight on them (downhill) will not spin, it is the wheels with the least traction that will spin. The aggressive off-road tires may or may not generate enough traction to move the vehicle forward, but at least the downhill Wheels won't spin, meaning that I will not slide sideways. If all four wheels break loose at any time, down the hill I go into the trees.

This is one of the scenarios that the quad motor setup is ill equipped to handle. It was really bad before the snow mode update, but it still tries to put some torque to all the wheels, which can induce slip in all the wheels, which sends the vehicle out of control and down the hill. Yes, of course the weight makes that worse. But it's the simple physics of attempting to put torque to all Wheels that compounds the problem.

Fixable with software? I'm sure it is. But it certainly doesn't mean that the problem does not exist.

 

[Biturbowned]

No. I am not talking about traction control. I'm talking about the mechanical ability of an open differential to move torque away from the wheel with traction.

You are in slippery snow or ice. You are on a side hill. Slipping sideways means going into the tree line.

I run a number of different rigs, but all of them have the switchable ability on the dash to unlock the differentials completely and run "open". Under the described conditions, where I absolutely do not want to go sideways, I will reach down flip my switches to full open and try to ease the vehicle across the side hill. Because of the Dynamics of a differential, in virtually every instance the wheels with the most weight on them (downhill) will not spin, it is the wheels with the least traction that will spin. The aggressive off-road tires may or may not generate enough traction to move the vehicle forward, but at least the downhill Wheels won't spin, meaning that I will not slide sideways. If all four wheels break loose at any time, down the hill I go into the trees.

This is one of the scenarios that the quad motor setup is ill equipped to handle. It was really bad before the snow mode update, but it still tries to put some torque to all the wheels, which can induce slip in all the wheels, which sends the vehicle out of control and down the hill. Yes, of course the weight makes that worse. But it's the simple physics of attempting to put torque to all Wheels that compounds the problem.

Fixable with software? I'm sure it is. But it certainly doesn't mean that the problem does not exist.

Were your rigs about 7k lbs?

 

[Tahoe Man]

In snow, it's all about the tires.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

No. I am not talking about traction control. I'm talking about the mechanical ability of an open differential to move torque away from the wheel with traction.

You are in slippery snow or ice. You are on a side hill. Slipping sideways means going into the tree line.

I run a number of different rigs, but all of them have the switchable ability on the dash to unlock the differentials completely and run "open". Under the described conditions, where I absolutely do not want to go sideways, I will reach down flip my switches to full open and try to ease the vehicle across the side hill. Because of the Dynamics of a differential, in virtually every instance the wheels with the most weight on them (downhill) will not spin, it is the wheels with the least traction that will spin. The aggressive off-road tires may or may not generate enough traction to move the vehicle forward, but at least the downhill Wheels won't spin, meaning that I will not slide sideways. If all four wheels break loose at any time, down the hill I go into the trees.

This is one of the scenarios that the quad motor setup is ill equipped to handle. It was really bad before the snow mode update, but it still tries to put some torque to all the wheels, which can induce slip in all the wheels, which sends the vehicle out of control and down the hill. Yes, of course the weight makes that worse. But it's the simple physics of attempting to put torque to all Wheels that compounds the problem.

Fixable with software? I'm sure it is. But it certainly doesn't mean that the problem does not exist.

Fair point. And essentially you are just turning off the VDC or traction control on your vehicle to stop it from intervening. I would argue that throttle control would be key with the Quad system, which should be better achieved by putting it into rock crawl mode no? It limits the vehicles speed to give you a longer gas pedal for more precise power modulation in those more off road, scaling a wall sideways instances.

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