Tesla FSD Full Self Driving & Rivian ?

[bdwalters]

You proved my point. Tesla is willing to give tech up for access to user data. That tells you how valuable it is.

also we don’t know how far along Rivian is and you are guessing. I think Driver + is better than autopilot where available. We just need Rivian to map more roads.

another thing to note only 1 level 3 system is approved for used in NA approved by NTHSB and it’s not teslas. MB is the first and only level 3 approved system.

I don’t see Tesla getting NTHSB approval for level 3 in current form without including more hardware. Tesla went cheap and uses mass marketing to blind people to the truth. It’s not FSD. It’s assisted Driving.

I don’t think Rivian’s data is all that valuable. They just don’t have that many cars on the road. I fully expect that Tesla would be asking for major licensing fees for the tech.

We do know how far along Rivian is. They have a system that works on a very limited set of mapped highways. Tesla has a system that has been doing 99% of my driving for me the last 3 weeks. That is a huge gap in capability.

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[zymolysis]

Interesting. I never use cruise control (and find the speed adjustment version even more annoying).

I like driving. If I didn’t like driving, maybe I’d like FSD in a Camry. Why have a nice car if you don’t want to drive it?

Because a nice car is more pleasant to ride in than a beater, and because I can't afford a chauffeur.

 

[bdwalters]

I wouldn't use it if it were free. My wife has 60 days of FSD free with her new Model 3, and we aren't even going to try it.

I like driving my truck, thats why I bought it. I can see applicability for age / mobility / handicapped folks. I hope Rivian stays well away from it.

You should at least try it. It’s really cool.

Like most of us, you’ll probably grow old someday and need this tech. Wouldn’t you still want to have the option of buying a Rivian with it?

 

[rhumbliner]

I get the benefit of cameras and radar. But why do so few manufacturers use lidar?

I can think of one reason why Tesla doesn’t like lidar or even radar — and it’s not cost. From a software standpoint having multiple different sensor types is fine when they all agree but what should it do when they don’t?

If radar/lidar says there is an obstruction up ahead but the HD camera clearly sees the road curve, what data should the software act on? Or the camera sees a cyclist ahead and radar/lidar doesn’t see anything? In my 2016 Model S both AP and TACC would shut down on slushy highways because the radar sensor was blocked by ice. And, of course, the camera on my 2024 Model X is often blinded when the sun is at a low angle.

This is a messy problem and I don’t know which approach is best: multiple different types of sensors or one really good sensor, but I can certainly see the complications and drawbacks of each approach. I guess time will tell if Tesla is taking the best one.

 

[bdwalters]

Yeah not really. The current ML tech is all just a LLM. Call me unimpressed for using that for FSD where the car ends up reacting to situations rather than deep planning.

I want AI to self drive our cars but the two schools of AI - neural nets (deep learning) and knowledge rep (building models/rules of world) - have not merged. All we have are poorly reactive cars that can't handle exceptions or have to be trained on every single exception in the world... like idiots u-turning in a traffic circle.

I live in Texas, and the drivers here show little sign of deep planning either. It’s not hard for me to picture the AIs doing better. Keep in mind that half of drivers have below average IQs!

 

[Rivian Head]

You should at least try it. It’s really cool.

Like most of us, you’ll probably grow old someday and need this tech. Wouldn’t you still want to have the option of buying a Rivian with it?

Bcondrey is lying. Tesla didn’t offer 60 day free trial

 

[M3_R2]

I've had a model 3 since 2018 and updated it to FSD when it was offered cheaply and reloaded last year on a new model 3 without FSD as to that point, I had overwhelmingly concluded that FSD was so bad as to be unusable.

It's come a long ways but is still nowhere near that of a normal driving experience when not on a highway and for reasons cited in this thread, I doubt it ever will be due to environmental factors such as setting sun, inclement weather, etc.

Just the other day, with a cop behind me, on a 2 way highway, it started signaling to turn onto a gravel road, likely because it was 100 ft closer drive to home. The cop actually stopped on the highway but didn't pursue me. Normally I'd have cancelled it but on this occasion felt it best to follow through and not appear highly confused. No one turns down that road though so he probably felt I was evading him.

Driving into the sun on a 2 way highway with a lot of curves is death defying.

Driving on a divided highway, turning OFF lane change is quite pleasant. But you must turn it off each time you drive which is really dumb.

Tesla's insistence on having the wipers forced into auto mode while in FSD is also really dumb and then entire concept itself of how they implement it via software is again, getting much better but still not on par with a rain sensor. I'd hate to imagine the dollar value of how much time they have put into that alone. Would buy a lot of rain sensors. Just plain Elon stubbornness if you ask me.

Rivian you don't want Tesla's FSD. Most mfg's have adequate systems for divided highways. I don't need anything more. Even then it's not perfect. Doesn't slow down in a linear fashion which pisses off drivers behind you.

Lots of older people are more than capable of driving themselves.

 

[Rivian Head]

I can think of one reason why Tesla doesn’t like lidar or even radar — and it’s not cost. From a software standpoint having multiple different sensor types is fine when they all agree but what should it do when they don’t?

If radar/lidar says there is an obstruction up ahead but the HD camera clearly sees the road curve, what data should the software act on? Or the camera sees a cyclist ahead and radar/lidar doesn’t see anything? In my 2016 Model S both AP and TACC would shut down on slushy highways because the radar sensor was blocked by ice. And, of course, the camera on my 2024 Model X is often blinded when the sun is at a low angle.

This is a messy problem and I don’t know which approach is best: multiple different types of sensors or one really good sensor, but I can certainly see the complications and drawbacks of each approach. I guess time will tell if Tesla is taking the best one.

I agree. We need to know the limitations of every technology. Human eyes have limitations as well. We shall find out if Tesla’s FSD is safer than human driving. I think safer driving should result in lower insurance premiums in a few years.

 

[RedCanyon]

I wouldn't say that Driver+ is way behind others. Here are the results from Out of Spec Hogback Test (ADAS testing circuit):

https://outofspecstudios.com/hogback

Rivian actually scored the best in the "Driving" column. The main thing I'd like to see is expanded availability.

Thought about this through the night as it didn't make sense to me. Then clicked on the link and read the details and get what this is comparing. This is only comparing... essentially engaging on the highway in a Drive Assist kind of way. ... thus Mercedes and Tesla at the top. But it if was a true comparison of the various systems ability to start from a parked position in front of your home and drive to your office 10 miles away the scores would be very different in that only Tesla can even attempt it. The rest would just remain sitting in park. So to suggest this is a comparison of each manufactures current state of autonomous driving capability is not accurate. Rivian can mostly keep the vehicle in the lane on the "mapped" highway, and mostly maintain appropriate distance from the vehicle in front of you... that's it. Once off a mapped highway, it can't do anything. ... and I am a fan... just saying everyone else is light years behind Tesla on this front.

 

[RedCanyon]

Thoughts?

You posted something about Tesla in the most anti-Tesla forum on the internet. There's not going to be any actual discussion on the subject. It's just "Elon Bad".

I had no idea... now I know.

 

[PeterSK]

You posted something about Tesla in the most anti-Tesla forum on the internet

You clearly haven’t visited r/RealTesla.

 

[jplblue]

I had no idea... now I know.

This is a strawman. No one has brought up Elon pejoratively. The discussion has been largely substantive. If anyone is arguing in bad faith, it's those with a persecution complex.

 

[Rivian Head]

Just drove home without any intervention with updated,V12.3.4 , again is better than the earlier version. The way Tesla is sending out upgraded FSD every 2 weeks, I can picture how mature FSD will be in a year or so. Wonder if Ford will be first OEM to license FSD? Then flood gates will open. Rivian, please get the licensing done before any OEM does. After all, an EV maker needs to be known as a technology company, or you will follow the path of Nokia.

 

[ohseedee]

How often are you driving in substandard conditions? At a minimum I'm curious about daytime when the sun is glaring directly into your windshield. But I'm also curious about fog, heavy rain, snow, etc. Those are the situations where I'd want the help if the computer is more capable than I am, and situations where Tesla's "vision only" doesn't receive more data about the world than I do.

IMO it's also one of the reasons I don't ever see the robotaxi system working anytime soon, especially if it's vision only. "Sorry, you can't request a ride right now because of inclement weather"

Considering I live in SoCal I would say I almost never drive in "substandard conditions." Although it has been raining an unusual amount this month and there has never been an issue other than a warning saying something like FSD performance might be reduced. But no crazy weather. While radar and lidar would certainly perform better in terrible conditions than camaras only, it wouldn't be any worse than a human driver which we have now. So if FSD can't safely drive in a condition, a human probably couldn't either. So sure, if the Tesla robotaxi says "sorry. bad weather" you might also want to skip the human uber driver

Cameras only are the cheaper option and there are probably more cars delivered this past week with camera based FSD than all cars ever made in history with lidar. If those giant lidars I see on the waymo are required, then I can't see ever getting enough autonomous cars on the road to have any real impact on safety. Just way too expensive. I think we can now say vision only systems work (even if not the best). I think the target should be getting as many cars on the road ASAP that are better at driving than humans vs the absolute perfect tech in a few cars. I can confidently say my model Y with FSD drives better than most people I see on the road.

 

[atebit]

Who would knowingly license “vapourware”. “IMHO, “full self-driving” (level 5) will happen, but is quite a ways off, and (again IMHO) will require cars to talk to cars & “smart roads” before this is truly a reality. <\$0.02>

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