Status of Current Charging Curves

[OverZealous]

Just my 2 cents being a fellow MS owner.

The R1T is less efficient than the MS but still charges faster for both kWh and miles than my 2016 MS. I’ve looked at it compared to my charging and seems like it will be the same at worse and mostly better to what I currently experience as it charges today with no improvements to the R1T charge curve.

I definitely haven't done the math on it. If the max range of the R1S on 21" wheels is ~340 miles in conserve, then that would be a 30% increase over our current range, with what appears to be roughly the same total charging time. Or maybe it's better to look at it as an extra 80 miles, since you probably have the same lower range buffer mentally. So, yeah, realistically that would still be a noticeable improvement over our current experience.

I was really hoping for the max pack (which might be an option by the time we get our S, but I doubt it). 400+ miles of range in conserve would mean we could really go a long ways on day trips without stopping anywhere, and would make vacation trips a whole lot less dependent on charger locations!

I would just upgrade our Model S, but the new Model S is a non-starter with the yoke/stalk situation, the UI getting worse, and all the other dumb Tesla stuff. And now it's starting price is $100k, which is kind of ridiculous for the vehicle you get (IMO).

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[Taycanfrank]

Just my 2 cents being a fellow MS owner.

The R1T is less efficient than the MS but still charges faster for both kWh and miles than my 2016 MS. I’ve looked at it compared to my charging and seems like it will be the same at worse and mostly better to what I currently experience as it charges today with no improvements to the R1T charge curve.

If the best Rivian can do is match 2016 EV technology, that's certainly not a win. If you bought a brand new laptop and it was only as powerful as a 6/7 year old one, yikes.. you'd probably run it back to the store for a refund.

We should be comparing the Rivian against modern 400v EVs, such as the ID.4 and Mach E.

 

[Ladiver]

If the best Rivian can do is match 2016 EV technology, that's certainly not a win. If you bought a brand new laptop and it was only as powerful as a 6/7 year old one, yikes.. you'd probably run it back to the store for a refund.

We should be comparing the Rivian against modern 400v EVs, such as the ID.4 and Mach E.

I have mentioned it before, but the LE and early version R1 vehicles are 2018 specs and were good 4 years ago. Technology has changed but the Rivian launch product has not. I think Rivian got screwed with all of the delays and now we are seeing it with their product.
They are lucky to be shipping trucks now because in a few months they will not be a leader in battery and charging.

 

[SeaGeo]

Any thoughts on the brand/ franchise of charger being part of the problem?

On the high end, I don't think that's the case. And seeing Kyle sit at the CP250 pulling the same values as these curves around 85% gives me some confidence that the curve is just screwy right now.

I guess my question after rambling about this is the polestar unique in how it pushes the voltage higher and that I shouldn’t expect that in other vehicles?

At empty the R1T has about 380v, and at full its about 459v. You basically had it right, all batteries lose voltage as they approach empty, and more as they're full. The exact range depends on pack design.

If the best Rivian can do is match 2016 EV technology, that's certainly not a win. If you bought a brand new laptop and it was only as powerful as a 6/7 year old one, yikes.. you'd probably run it back to the store for a refund.

We should be comparing the Rivian against modern 400v EVs, such as the ID.4 and Mach E.

Totally agree. That's why I compared to the ID.4 and EQS. Personally I want to give them the benefit of the doubt that they may have accidentally limited it in the most recent OTA, because I just don't want to believe that they intentionally put such a stupid ass curve on the truck.

I have mentioned it before, but the LE and early version R1 vehicles are 2018 specs and were good 4 years ago. Technology has changed but the Rivian launch product has not. I think Rivian got screwed with all of the delays and now we are seeing it with their product.

The tech isn't any older than the ID.4, MME, EQS, etc. The battery cells themselves are totally fine, and the charging curve above 50% shouldn't in any way be limited by the battery cell tech. If it's a hardware limit, it's a failure of pack or HVAC design. I very much think it's a software limit that's either intentional or unintentional right now. Especially since Kyle didn't thermally throttle it while towing a literal air brick of a trailer.

 

[SANZC02]

If the best Rivian can do is match 2016 EV technology, that's certainly not a win. If you bought a brand new laptop and it was only as powerful as a 6/7 year old one, yikes.. you'd probably run it back to the store for a refund.

We should be comparing the Rivian against modern 400v EVs, such as the ID.4 and Mach E.

You miss my point. You are comparing 2 different efficiency vehicles. Taking the miles per kWh into effect for both at worst it is equal. If only counting kWh input they are not even close.

The curve the other day averaged over 110 kWh hours for 28 minutes. My MS if it even gets to 110 kWh last maybe 28 seconds and tapers drastically.

 

[SeaGeo]

You miss my point. You are comparing 2 different efficiency vehicles. Taking the miles per kWh into effect for both at worst it is equal. If only counting kWh input they are not even close.

The curve the other day averaged over 110 kWh hours for 28 minutes. My MS if it even gets to 110 kWh last maybe 28 seconds and tapers drastically.

I don't think he is. His (and mine) is if you compare it against a modern MS, the R1T is fairly slow charging. For example, the current Plaid curve is similar to the EQS curve above 50%, and faster below 50%. So both miles/min and absolute rate the R1T doesn't really compare.

 

[SANZC02]

I don't think he is. His (and mine) is if you compare it against a modern MS, the R1T is fairly slow charging. For example, the current Plaid curve is similar to the EQS curve above 50%, and faster below 50%. So both miles/min and absolute rate the R1T doesn't really compare.

That is still yet a different scenario. I was specifically responding to @OverZealous concern about his current trips taking longer in the Rivian than it does in his ‘15 MS.

My take after reviewing what has been reported so far is at worst it would be the same in the R1 getting ~2 miles per kWh as the MS getting ~3 miles per kWh but probably would be better.

I was in no way trying to insinuate that it is on par with other new vehicles.

 

[Taycanfrank]

You miss my point. You are comparing 2 different efficiency vehicles.

Quite the opposite. You're comparing a 2022 EV to a 2016 EV, I'm saying let's compare to 2022 EVs.

Any 2022 technology will look good compared to 2016 technology, I don't cross shop an iPhone 13 with an iPhone 7.

Suggesting a road trip will be equally fine with a Rivian as a 2016 Tesla is also inaccurate. The Tesla network is far superior to the EA network, which only makes it more important for Rivian to maximize their efficiency and charging curve to make up for what can be a very poor network.

The EA network is very bad and if you're used to the Tesla network you will be shocked the more you venture out and use (/try to use) it.

 

[SeaGeo]

That is still yet a different scenario. I was specifically responding to @OverZealous concern about his current trips taking longer in the Rivian than it does in his ‘15 MS.

Fair enough. I misunderstood where you were coming from with that.

 

[SeaGeo]

Thanks for putting this together.
I am waiting for Kyle's charging test nervously because it doesn't look promising. For many people that mostly commuting this probably doesn't matter that much, but for me Rivian is going to be a road trip vehicle and I'll keep commuting in smaller, more efficient car.
The promise of 140 miles in 20 minutes and "fast charging at over 200 kW for sustained periods" was not great, but OK for me. It looks that they missed it quite a bit unfortunately.

It looks that even Hummer might be a better road trip vehicle, which sounds funny (assuming you'll have 350kW chargers on your way).

Kyle just mentioned on his range test that he's also seeing pretty bad charging speeds above 60%. So I have a feeling this is reasonably representative.

 

[kanundrum]

Been thinking about this a lot and yes the curve is pretty poor. I am wondering if they have the software set to slower speeds because of the setting the vehicle is on, if you are in fact charging to the 100% road trip setting yea after 60% it will slow down.

I am wondering if you set the vehicle to the daily trip setting 70% if the curve gets better after the 60% threshold because the vehicle in fact knows its not charging 100% so it has no reason to slow down. I think it might be something to test out for sure might be too late for @OutofSpecKyle to check one last time.

 

[SeaGeo]

The thought has crossed my mind too @kanundrum . I'm also curious if it reacts to how frequently you use the daily charge setting since they have said the BMS will respond to your behavior.

SID also got a smoother curve this morning.

I have a feeling they either have a low temperature limit set, or the HVAC isn't responding correctly. The curves just look oddly like thermal throttling even though the overall load (and external temps) isn't particularly high.

 

[Trandall]

I guess I didn't realize what a finicky goldilocks zone battery temperature needed to be in to pull within 75% of max KW below 60% SOC. From the conversations I'm reading it needs to be between 78.8 to 81.1 degrees fahrenheit. How the hell do people in Palm spring DC fast charge, fill up the spare tire compartment with ice?

 

[SeaGeo]

I guess I didn't realize what a finicky goldilocks zone battery temperature needed to be in to pull within 75% of max KW below 60% SOC. From the conversations I'm reading it needs to be between 78.8 to 81.1 degrees fahrenheit. How the hell do people in Palm spring DC fast charge, fill up the spare tire compartment with ice?

Where are you seeing that? The range that I've seen is usually much larger, with an optimal temperature of around 60 to 95 degrees F.

 

[Trandall]

Ha, just being facetious that the stars need to be aligned to get optimal charging. I was hoping for a bit better charge curve. I'm debating on if/ when to put down a deposit on a future R1T, If I can get a good trade for my 2-3 year old LE I might be interested in the 2 motor... 600HP is still a beast.

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