Rivian Battery Poll - VOTE HERE

[ohmman]

To expand a little on what @ajdelange was saying about the range forecast, there are two methods in Teslas to look at your range - the battery range status, which can be displayed in distance (mi/km) or in percentage. If you have it set to distance, it works precisely as @DucRider suggests - it takes the remaining charge in kWh and multiplies it by the EPA rated consumption number to arrive at the remaining mileage.

There is also a consumption app that shows you a chart of your consumption over the last 5, 15, or 30 miles. That app also provides an average over those miles, and tells you what your range would be if you continued that particular average, by substituting that value for the EPA consumption.

Either one of these can be either accurate or misleading, depending on how much experience you have interpreting them. If you've just climbed a long pass, the consumption graph estimate is going to be pretty far off. Likewise if you've been going downhill but have a 50 mile climb ahead of you.

These explanations are overly complex, though. Nobody really has to do any math. You can get it pretty quickly, and it's just a matter of seeing if you are consuming more than normal or less than normal to have an idea if your estimated range is accurate. If you need more range, the answer is typically simple. Slow down.

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[Babbuino]

Well, no new info on the configurator, but I thought I'd share anyway.

 

[ajdelange]

Either one of these can be either accurate or misleading, depending on how much experience you have interpreting them. If you've just climbed a long pass, the consumption graph estimate is going to be pretty far off.

And that's why someone who wants to know his "fuel condition" as pilots call it, don't use those displays but rather the "Trip" graph which shows where you are along your route, how much energy you have on board with a historical record of how you used it and a mile by mile projection from where you are to your destination with intervening terrain and, I think, but am not sure, probable speed derived from speed limit data, taken into account. The estimated battery at destination is presented in a textbox as well as, obviously, being shown graphically. Using this graph one gets the most important piece of information, how much gas he will have left at his destination but the chart contains a lot more information as well. If he has a comfort zone e.g. he does not like to drive with the battery lower than say 20% (the projection curve turns yellow below 20%) then he can see where he will reach that level and plan to stop and charge before getting there. He can see where the hills are. He can identify situations where the SoC will drop below his comfort zone but then return to above it (long downhill run). He can see from the history where his use was higher than expected or lower and adjust his driving style. He can see the effects of slowing down for a stretch on the whole rest of the trip. He is able to for example, see that his conditon at the Podunk SC is going to be more favorable than the original plan suggested (tail wind) and that there will be plenty of margin at Sqeedunk and decide to skip Podunk knowing that he will get faster charging with the lower battery level (we don't know if Rivian's taper will make this as much of a consideration).

I really, really hope that Rivian is going to give us something like this. I will be both very disappointed and very surprised if they do not. I won't say that I would cancel my order were it not offered but I would really think about it.

These explanations are overly complex, though.

While that graph is a complete and revealing picture of fuel condition moment by moment my wife, for example, has no clue as to what any of it means. For her it is completely useless. It might as well be a picture of Mt. Fujii. All she needs/wants to see is the fuel gauge. If it goes below 20% she starts asking "shouldn't we stop for charge" every half mile or so.

Nobody really has to do any math.

True. You can set your SoC indicator to % and use it in exactly the same way that you have used the gas gauge on your ICE cars for years. But most will remember the EPA rating for their vehicles. % SoC times EPA range is a rough estimate of how much farther you can drive.

The Trip graph and all the math I have discussed is for those that want to understand as much about their fuel condition as possible. These tend to be techie types who have an interest in such things. My wife and I were discussing this yesterday. She said that if went off to that big highway in the sky she would get rid of the X immediately. She said that while it is fun to drive she doesn't understand anything about it. There are lots of people out there like her and so it becomes clear that manufacturers are going to have to dumb down these vehicles just as they have dumbed down so may other products in order to be able to sell them. Hope Rivian hasn't done any of that!

 

[jarross]

Maybe you could keep your Chevy to be the hauler to these spots?

The chevy belongs to my wife and I would NEVER take it where I go! She keeps that thing pristine!

 

[RivFly]

I'm new here......but I've been around this EV thing with a few Model 3 friends and I'm looking for a useful vehicle. For me, its got to haul some dirt bikes all over the west coast so range is a big deal. I've long mentioned to my EV friends, until it hauls, goes semi serious off road, and can tow a small trailer I'll stay on the sidelines.

I know my intentions of use are probably less aligned with some since I have dirt bikes but I'm here and onboard with doing better for the planet. So sorry if my hobby isn't perfect but as some will say, you gotta start with baby steps.

Annnnnnnyyyyyyyways.............range, range, range! I was doing the math last night (I'm bad at math), looking over fuelly.com where I've long used it to research vehicle MPG in real world use. Reading between the lines it seems 400+ miles is a MUST for me and my use. I was comparing an F-150/RAM 1500/Tacoma where all those will do anywhere between 400-500miles with their big tanks, averaging about 18-22mpg at highway speeds, then factoring about a $100,000 vehicle and it would take about 20 years to recover my cost.....with my bad math. Again......please don't throw me out......I'm only looking at this from a purely use perspective/comparison and probably as a normal buyer......not focused as a luxury/early adopter/status buyer but as how an R1T can help me with my needs. Again, all that besides the green-friendly-planet-thing which I'm onboard with. I guess my point being......range......range is my biggest need for my adventures.

 

[skyote]

I was comparing an F-150/RAM 1500/Tacoma where all those will do anywhere between 400-500miles with their big tanks, averaging about 18-22mpg at highway speeds, then factoring about a $100,000 vehicle

Disclaimer - I don't know your typical usage, so I don't know how you did your analysis.

I'd pose a couple questions:
1) Have you looked at costs for a similar 700 hp truck? Even a V6/8 400 hp truck that's well appointed might cost more than you realize, and you should only consider the incremental premium in purchase price.
2) How often do you need that additional range? I know many others might use it way more often than me, but I rarely travel over 250 miles one way, and am OK with a 45 min stop to charge along the way if I will be going that far.
3) For your cost analysis, will you be charging at home, or planning to use mostly public charging?

 

[Coast2Coast]

As skyote suggests, RivFly, you should do an incremental analysis or take the cost difference between the ICE model and comparable BEV model, and look at costs per year (or mile) on the basis of the incremental difference. Unfortunately, we don't yet know the costs of Rivian models and options, but a fully optioned ICE model, comparable to a fully optioned Rivian model, will likely be priced fairly similarly. High hp, 4WD, air suspension, luxurious interior, full function tailgate, bed and rack system pickups are expensive, no matter the drivetrain.

That being the case - there isn't much of a price differential - there are other differences. Three come to mind: costs of ownership, environmental impact, and range/refueling. There may be others and I'd be happy if folks add to this list.

There's plenty of evidence BEV costs of ownership are lower and environmental impacts lesser than ICE vehicles. So, it really comes down to one factor where BEV trucks suffer relative to ICE trucks.

Range, pure and simple. And in a few years, maybe 3-5, BEVs won't even suffer in this respect. But, in the meantime, I'm willing to except a tradeoff where I suffer in terms of range but gain in every other way.

 

[RivFly]

Disclaimer - I don't know your typical usage, so I don't know how you did your analysis.

I'd pose a couple questions:
1) Have you looked at costs for a similar 700 hp truck? Even a V6/8 400 hp truck that's well appointed might cost more than you realize, and you should only consider the incremental premium in purchase price.
2) How often do you need that additional range? I know many others might use it way more often than me, but I rarely travel over 250 miles one way, and am OK with a 45 min stop to charge along the way if I will be going that far.
3) For your cost analysis, will you be charging at home, or planning to use mostly public charging?

1) Yes I have......and don't take this the wrong way but that's a typical way EV people think (I have a few EV friends).....comparing the higher cost of something equivalent to something with the talking points, either luxury or HP. I get that but that's the flaw in that idea, the lack of the downside of EV.....the headache of refilling schedule, structures and routing. None of those things come over with a 700hp truck or a well appointed top spec F-150/250/350 because those patterns and habits of using a vehicle is part of the EV switch. Again, I'm here knowing those things and I'm willing to change. So again yes, I've thought of those talking points.

2)Thinking of range isn't a normal habit or pattern coming from an ICE vehicle so the more you can make an EV truck like a normal truck is part of the solution from a range stand point. Its also why I'm here hoping to find the answers. I'm not blind to the fact of how EV or the structure is in place.

3) I honestly don't know. I expect to install a charging port at home but I have no idea the cost or what's involved. Part of why I'm here.

I do appreciate the questions, I hope I wasn't too blunt with some of the answers. Ive had a few of these same discussions with other EV friends and I find it almost like comparing the difference between operating a Mac vs Windows or Android. The way two groups of people look at things from varying views. My Tesla friends seem to be programmed Tesla salesmen and don't seem to "use" the car so much as "monitor" the car. I'm looking for a truck that I can use......not monitor.....if that makes any sense. I like how Rivian is stacking up in that regards. Questions still linger but that's why I'm here, intellectual investigation.

 

[skyote]

@RivFly ,
I'm actually a gearhead & ICE guy, Rivian will be my first EV purchase. I appreciate the engineering & performance of these vehicles first & foremost.

With that said, I've come to really appreciate EVs for reasons other than performance.

I do look forward to not having to visit a gas station 99% of the time, or worry about one of my vehicles being on empty when I'm in a hurry to get somewhere. Potential cost savings & maintenance (lack of) benefits are all just icing on the cake for me.

I am guessing though that my wife will fail to plug it in if she drives it to low range, the same way she'll pass 5 gas stations on the way home when her gas light is on...

 

[trickflow]

3) I honestly don't know. I expect to install a charging port at home but I have no idea the cost or what's involved. Part of why I'm here.

Hey RivFly,

I live in CA and I can tell you that it is not too cheap to have an EVSE (the charge port) installed. If you install it next to your electrical panel it'll still run you about $400 for the electrician. I was about 15 feet away and it was closer to $500 as they need to use either 6 gage or 8 gage wire (depending on the EVSE you get and the length as there is heat loss of something like that when you run there longer distances). Then you also have to consider what service you have running to your house? Is it an older house that has a 60 amp service or 100 amp service? You will probably need to upgrade the panel then to 200 amps. The charger itself need either a 40 or 60 amp breaker, again depending on which one you get.

Then consider the EVSE you want to get (Rivian has shown a branded one but no info is out on that). Clipper Creek? Juicebox? Depending on the environment and features you want (Wifi connected?) that can run you $500+. I have a Clipper Creek and a Tesla HPWC and the clipper creek seems way more sturdy. I have both mounted in the garage, but if I were to need it outside I would go with the Clipper Creek as it is sealed very well and can handle outside use.

If you can't do the electric yourself and don't need permits, you are still going to be at about $1k for install and equipment. Maybe less if you can get a used one or get a different model than what I have, but it will still be expensive.

Rivian has said that the internal charger will be 11KW, which until we build the trucks on the configurator can change, but if that does not you'll want an EVSE that can handle the max power (especially if you get the largest battery). That will require the 60 amp breaker as it will pull up to 48 amps at 220/240 (need to use the rule of 80% on the breakers).

I know that some will tell me I am wrong, but if this is for you to save money, then get an ICE truck as of now. The tech is still expensive, but as we can see from Tesla's battery day, the tech is getting cheaper in the coming years. Maybe get a truck you'll have for 5 years and then get a Rivian or whatever competition is available by then. Sure people will tell you that over the years it will be cheaper, but you have to lay all that extra money out up front to save in the future. But it may be better to not have to spend the money up front and pay a little more over the life of the vehicle. Just sit down with a spreadsheet and figure it out before you buy. Take maintenance and fuel costs and then compare that to electric costs. I think the Rivian will get the equivalent of about 70-80 MPG for your calculation. But again you will need to factor in the cost of electric. I charge my car at night during the cheap time (we are on time of use, so night rate is 15 cents/kwh compared to 48 cents during the high period). Also consider if you will be fast charging on the road a lot as that can be all over the place in terms of cost / kwh. I think Electrify America is a good baseline to check.

I have a Tesla Model 3 Performance and I really like it for the tech and the smoothness. Looking back at my roughly 2 years of ownership, factoring in adding the home wall charger, etc, I am DEFINATELY more expensive than if I bought a nicely equipped BMW M3 or something like that. But I love that the car updates itself and that it is quiet and smooth.

Regardless of that anyone tells you, this is a luxury truck and you can not compare it to a base f150 2wd single cab. Think King Ranch and you will be in the ballpark, but you get more tech and over the air updates.

I know this was wordy, but I hope it helps answer the question of charging as well as a few others.

 

[ElectricTrucking]

Hey RivFly,

I live in CA and I can tell you that it is not too cheap to have an EVSE (the charge port) installed. If you install it next to your electrical panel it'll still run you about $400 for the electrician. I was about 15 feet away and it was closer to $500 as they need to use either 6 gage or 8 gage wire (depending on the EVSE you get and the length as there is heat loss of something like that when you run there longer distances). Then you also have to consider what service you have running to your house? Is it an older house that has a 60 amp service or 100 amp service? You will probably need to upgrade the panel then to 200 amps. The charger itself need either a 40 or 60 amp breaker, again depending on which one you get.

Then consider the EVSE you want to get (Rivian has shown a branded one but no info is out on that). Clipper Creek? Juicebox? Depending on the environment and features you want (Wifi connected?) that can run you $500+. I have a Clipper Creek and a Tesla HPWC and the clipper creek seems way more sturdy. I have both mounted in the garage, but if I were to need it outside I would go with the Clipper Creek as it is sealed very well and can handle outside use.

If you can't do the electric yourself and don't need permits, you are still going to be at about $1k for install and equipment. Maybe less if you can get a used one or get a different model than what I have, but it will still be expensive.

Rivian has said that the internal charger will be 11KW, which until we build the trucks on the configurator can change, but if that does not you'll want an EVSE that can handle the max power (especially if you get the largest battery). That will require the 60 amp breaker as it will pull up to 48 amps at 220/240 (need to use the rule of 80% on the breakers).

I know that some will tell me I am wrong, but if this is for you to save money, then get an ICE truck as of now. The tech is still expensive, but as we can see from Tesla's battery day, the tech is getting cheaper in the coming years. Maybe get a truck you'll have for 5 years and then get a Rivian or whatever competition is available by then. Sure people will tell you that over the years it will be cheaper, but you have to lay all that extra money out up front to save in the future. But it may be better to not have to spend the money up front and pay a little more over the life of the vehicle. Just sit down with a spreadsheet and figure it out before you buy. Take maintenance and fuel costs and then compare that to electric costs. I think the Rivian will get the equivalent of about 70-80 MPG for your calculation. But again you will need to factor in the cost of electric. I charge my car at night during the cheap time (we are on time of use, so night rate is 15 cents/kwh compared to 48 cents during the high period). Also consider if you will be fast charging on the road a lot as that can be all over the place in terms of cost / kwh. I think Electrify America is a good baseline to check.

I have a Tesla Model 3 Performance and I really like it for the tech and the smoothness. Looking back at my roughly 2 years of ownership, factoring in adding the home wall charger, etc, I am DEFINATELY more expensive than if I bought a nicely equipped BMW M3 or something like that. But I love that the car updates itself and that it is quiet and smooth.

Regardless of that anyone tells you, this is a luxury truck and you can not compare it to a base f150 2wd single cab. Think King Ranch and you will be in the ballpark, but you get more tech and over the air updates.

I know this was wordy, but I hope it helps answer the question of charging as well as a few others.

You are absolutely right in what you are saying. For me it is pure want and nothing else. The cost is in my budget more than the years I have left to wait for any type of break through. When I was a kid I thought the 80's and 90's would be something magical. Where did that go?

 

[drhnbtx]

Based on our unscientific poll, does anyone think that Rivian may forgo altogether or cut short the run on the 105kwh battery due to low demand? Just speculation, but your responses appreciated just the same.

 

[Babbuino]

Based on our unscientific poll, does anyone think that Rivian may forgo altogether or cut short the run on the 105kwh battery due to low demand? Just speculation, but your responses appreciated just the same.

Probably so, the same thing happened to the MY, but Tesla used that one to make the car seem cheaper lol. Starting at 40K sounds a heck of a lot better than 50K to create buzz. I wonder in the single motor CT will have the same end...

 

[trickflow]

Based on our unscientific poll, does anyone think that Rivian may forgo altogether or cut short the run on the 105kwh battery due to low demand? Just speculation, but your responses appreciated just the same.

This is a tough question. Being that the packs will me modular (I think), they are not designing 3 different size battery packs. Probably will always be an option IMO.

 

[Jmiller929]

There's an old saying that one cannot be too rich or too thin. I think that's extendable to range in an motor vehicle. While you may absolutely need it seldom, if ever, it is comforting to know that it is lying there under the floorboards. For example, you are planning to arrive at a fast charger with 10% reserve - pushing it a bit but you've had a great tailwind all along so far so why not just keep going instead of making an extra stop. Plus the bathrooms at that next Walmart are cleaner. Whatever. Now suddenly and unexpectedly the wind veers and a huge thunderstorm rolls in with torrential rain. All of a sudden your 10% margin is a 10% shortfall. Whatever size the battery one can envision himself in that position but with 400 mile range it is less likely than with 300.

Now Elon Musk has proclaimed that 300 miles is enough and he's right in some ways. My ICE SUV's have ranges like that. But there are two differences with 300 mi range in a BEV as opposed to with ICE. First, with ICE you try to avoid the bottom 5% of the gas tank whereas with a BEV you try to avoid the bottom 20% and the top 20% of the SoC in ordinary driving and the top and bottom 10% when on a road trip (which is where this whole thing about range becomes significant). Thus your 300 mile rated vehicle is, on a road trip, really a 240 mile vehicle but your 400 mile rated one is a 320 mile vehicle. That extra 80 miles is a comfort. The second factor is that things that increase drag (speed, road surface, rain, wind) have a more profound effect on a BEV than an ICE vehicle because the inertial and gravitational loads in a BEV are partly recoverable and thus effectively smaller making drag relatively larger.

If I test against the trip I make most often the 300 mi range would add an hour and an extra charge stop.

FInally, and I think this is going to be a very important factor for many, is where one is in life. I'm at the point where these trucks are bucket list items. There are, as they say, no pockets in the shroud so why not go first cabin? I realize, because I have been there, that someone in an earlier phase of his life won't have such a cavalier attitude WRT $10K.

Well said, thanks for your comments

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