Sponsored

R1T accessories & options wish list.

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Threads
9
Messages
2,883
Reaction score
2,317
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla XLR+2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, R1T
Occupation
EE Retired
So you believe just on the fact that seat heating would use less energy that this company would not give the option for seat cooling ?
I don't believe we are communicating. The decision to provide heating is based on the simplicity and low cost with which it is done vis-a-vis the benefit it confers which is the very important one maintaining vehicle occupant comfort with improved range (relative to cabin heat) in cold weather. A few watts can do the job of a few killowatts. That's a very big deal for BEV drivers. Reduced cold weather range is still a favorite bete noir of the FUD crowd.

The efficiencies of the heating system have nothing to do with the decision to install cooling as cooling is not used when heat is on and vice versa. But the same rationale would be used in making the decision to install it. What are the costs and what are the benefits? It is very easy to include a piece of resistive wire in almost any structure. it is a lot more difficult to include air ducts or coolant tubes. This makes it more expensive. As to the benefits, I don't know. I do know that a warm bum and back can render one quite comfortable in a cold cabin to the extent that one can turn the heat way down but I don't know that the converse is true or the extent to which it is true because, while I have had several cars with heated seats I've never had one with cooled. This tells me that when the engineers/marketers do the trades the benefits are not deemed worth the costs. If they were actively cooled seats would be more commonplace.

BEVs in hot weather present many problems to designers. The hotter is is outside the vehicle the more energy is required to pump the motor, inverter/rectifier and battery heat overboard. This reduces range. As is well documented the Tesla systems run out of capacity to the point where they take all the cooling and divert it to the battery. There is, in these cases, no cooling source which could be directed to the seats. Rivian's thermal designs may have more or less capacity than Tesla's but as the same physics rule both I think one of the things steering these manufacturers away from actively cooled seats is that cooling is harder to come by than heating.

So how about a passive solution? Something like the Canine Cooler Bed if you know about those. Here again I think the answer is complexity, cost, and weight.
Sponsored

 

Jehorton

Well-Known Member
First Name
James
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Threads
17
Messages
472
Reaction score
539
Location
Stuart Florida
Vehicles
2022 Model Y Performance
Occupation
Firefighter/Paramedic
@ajdelange i see your point but still hope that cooled seats are an option. A warm bum sounds horrible to me as I live in FL as I’m sure cooled seats sound horrible to you. That being said, I would sacrifice range if I had the option to keep my ass cool in this heat down here. So I would hope Rivian let’s us decide how we weigh range vs comfort.
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Threads
9
Messages
2,883
Reaction score
2,317
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla XLR+2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, R1T
Occupation
EE Retired
They might decide to offer them. Only they know at this point and, if the configurator pops up soon (as we all hope it will) presumably we will know too. I think the probability is low. I've given the engineering reasons. The marketing reason is that actively cooled seats are something found in high end luxury vehicles. These trucks are "lifestyle" vehicles. They are not high end luxury vehicles.

I'm sure summertime in Florida is uncomfortable but I'll note that I somehow survived July/Aug in the DC metro area for many years and I doubt Florida is that much worse.
 

Jehorton

Well-Known Member
First Name
James
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Threads
17
Messages
472
Reaction score
539
Location
Stuart Florida
Vehicles
2022 Model Y Performance
Occupation
Firefighter/Paramedic
They might decide to offer them. Only they know at this point and, if the configurator pops up soon (as we all hope it will) presumably we will know too. I think the probability is low. I've given the engineering reasons. The marketing reason is that actively cooled seats are something found in high end luxury vehicles. These trucks are "lifestyle" vehicles. They are not high end luxury vehicles.

I'm sure summertime in Florida is uncomfortable but I'll note that I somehow survived July/Aug in the DC metro area for many years and I doubt Florida is that much worse.
I very much disagree with two points. This vehicle is a high end Vehicle. And comparing DC heat to South Florida heat. Temperatures can be close but humidity is a different world down here.
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Threads
9
Messages
2,883
Reaction score
2,317
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla XLR+2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, R1T
Occupation
EE Retired
That is your opinion to which you are, of course, entitled but I just heard an Edmund's spokesperson refer to the Rivian as a lifestyle vehicle in a piece today. It may have a luxury price tag but it is not a luxury car. This is an important for you to understand as there were quite a few Tesla buyers who were disappointed when they found out that the cars that they paid luxury price for were not luxury cars. You are paying a premium here for the tech. Not the fancy leathers, woods and seat coolers found in real luxury vehicles. If you want a luxury BEV look at Lucid (I wonder if it has cooled seats).

As to humidity in DC - it isn't what you would call xeric here in the summer!
 

Sponsored

azbill

Well-Known Member
First Name
Bill
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Threads
14
Messages
1,261
Reaction score
1,558
Location
Arizona
Vehicles
R1T, Mach E, Hummer EV SUT
Occupation
Engineer
BEVs in hot weather present many problems to designers. The hotter is is outside the vehicle the more energy is required to pump the motor, inverter/rectifier and battery heat overboard. This reduces range. As is well documented the Tesla systems run out of capacity to the point where they take all the cooling and divert it to the battery.
This is quite surprising to me. I drive my Bolt in Phoenix summers with it 110 to 120 F in the summer and I never lose cabin cooling. Yes, the battery conditioning uses 3-5% of the battery, and thus I do lose some range, but the cabin cooling never turns off. If it did my wife would never drive the car.

On a side note, batteries themselves become more efficient in hotter temperatures, and much less efficient in colder temperatures. This is another factor as to why EVs lose much more range in winter climates, than they do in hot climates. It is not just due to the heating and cooling systems.
 

DucRider

Well-Known Member
First Name
Gary
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Threads
17
Messages
1,652
Reaction score
3,143
Location
ORegon
Vehicles
Polestar 2, Ioniq, R1S
I'll throw in another note:
Sometimes "cooled" seats are nothing more that perforated covers with a fan moving cabin air. But at the same time, if you are running A/C anyway (likely in many areas), having the seats function as one of the "vents" for the cold air is not a huge energy cost.
 

Ginny

Well-Known Member
First Name
Ginny
Joined
Nov 2, 2020
Threads
0
Messages
166
Reaction score
179
Location
California
Vehicles
2011 escalade ext, 2019 corvette
Occupation
retired
I don't believe we are communicating. The decision to provide heating is based on the simplicity and low cost with which it is done vis-a-vis the benefit it confers which is the very important one maintaining vehicle occupant comfort with improved range (relative to cabin heat) in cold weather. A few watts can do the job of a few killowatts. That's a very big deal for BEV drivers. Reduced cold weather range is still a favorite bete noir of the FUD crowd.

The efficiencies of the heating system have nothing to do with the decision to install cooling as cooling is not used when heat is on and vice versa. But the same rationale would be used in making the decision to install it. What are the costs and what are the benefits? It is very easy to include a piece of resistive wire in almost any structure. it is a lot more difficult to include air ducts or coolant tubes. This makes it more expensive. As to the benefits, I don't know. I do know that a warm bum and back can render one quite comfortable in a cold cabin to the extent that one can turn the heat way down but I don't know that the converse is true or the extent to which it is true because, while I have had several cars with heated seats I've never had one with cooled. This tells me that when the engineers/marketers do the trades the benefits are not deemed worth the costs. If they were actively cooled seats would be more commonplace.

BEVs in hot weather present many problems to designers. The hotter is is outside the vehicle the more energy is required to pump the motor, inverter/rectifier and battery heat overboard. This reduces range. As is well documented the Tesla systems run out of capacity to the point where they take all the cooling and divert it to the battery. There is, in these cases, no cooling source which could be directed to the seats. Rivian's thermal designs may have more or less capacity than Tesla's but as the same physics rule both I think one of the things steering these manufacturers away from actively cooled seats is that cooling is harder to come by than heating.

So how about a passive solution? Something like the Canine Cooler Bed if you know about those. Here again I think the answer is complexity, cost, and weight.
Very interesting. I use my heated seats most of the time instead of the heater and works quite well. I also have cooled or vented seats that work really well when it is a hot California day. I was hoping for both but I suppose I could settle for heated only. Guess we will see.
 

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Threads
9
Messages
2,883
Reaction score
2,317
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla XLR+2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, R1T
Occupation
EE Retired
Passive solutions (blowing or sucking air into or out of the seat) are obviously simpler and more common than I thought. Tesla has a patent for a solution that uses actively heated or cooled liquid circulated through layers in the cushion. AFAIK this is not installed in any of their current production. What Rivian does we will see.
 

drhnbtx

Well-Known Member
First Name
Darren
Joined
Feb 10, 2019
Threads
4
Messages
116
Reaction score
192
Location
New Braunfels, Texas
Vehicles
"22 R1T '07 FJ Cruiser, '13 Chevy 2500, '18 XC90
Brian Gase stated in a video @ the overland expo I believe that the seats will be heated and cooled. If that is ventilation for cooling or some other technology he did not say.
 

Sponsored

ajdelange

Well-Known Member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Threads
9
Messages
2,883
Reaction score
2,317
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla XLR+2019, Lexus, Landcruiser, R1T
Occupation
EE Retired
This is quite surprising to me. I drive my Bolt in Phoenix summers with it 110 to 120 F in the summer and I never lose cabin cooling.
It might be a surprise to you that the early Tesla designs were marginal in this regard but it should not be a surprise to you that the higher the outside air temperature is the harder the heat pump has to work to shed the heat is is collecting from the cooling load. Look at your electric bills. Another factor to consider, especially for those living in xeric climates, is that the latent heat load is smaller in those places than it is in places like Florida.

On a side note, batteries themselves become more efficient in hotter temperatures, and much less efficient in colder temperatures.
Do they? Yes, ionic mobility is less in cold temperatures which means that less current can be drawn from (or put into) a cold battery so what do we do if the battery is cold. Warm it! Thereafter it is just as efficient in cold weather as warm.

Note that the higher mobility induced impedance is offset to some extent by higher conductivity of the copper components of the battery itself and of the wiring and motor winding. Also note that the higher impedance induced by lower mobility means that the battery will warm itself.

This is another factor as to why EVs lose much more range in winter climates, than they do in hot climates.
It is a significant factor for short trips if the car is not stored warm such that regen is not available initially. Once the battery has warmed itself to the point that it is safe to turn regen on it is not a direct factor.

It is not just due to the heating and cooling systems.
The battery must be maintained within a certain temperature range for the sake of its health. That requires energy in temperature extremes, hot and cold. The energy required to keep the battery safely warm or cool is deducted from that available for traction. The fact that battery internal impedance changes with temperature really doesn't come into it to an appreciable extent.

I spend as much time as I do thinking about this stuff in the hopes of learning something. What I have learned from thinking about this particular aspect of lithium ion batteries is that their open circuit voltages do not change with temperature! IOW there is a much charge available from them when hot or cold. Given a cold battery we must take some energy from it (if we can't get it from somewhere else) to get it into its safe (from the battery's POV) operating temperature band. From the energy perspective it doesn't matter whether this is dissipated in the mobility induced resistance or in a resistive heater. If it's so cold out that normal losses in the drive train and battery nor what's extractable from the air are insufficient to keep battery and occupants comfortable then we must take energy from the battery to do that. That's why range goes down in winter. In hot weather the heat pump must work harder to shed heat from the drive train, occupants and insolation. That's why range goes down in hot weather.
 

Ginny

Well-Known Member
First Name
Ginny
Joined
Nov 2, 2020
Threads
0
Messages
166
Reaction score
179
Location
California
Vehicles
2011 escalade ext, 2019 corvette
Occupation
retired
Even thinking what kind of options I would like. Retractable running boards, chrome molding on doors to protect from getting banged into, am/fm radio with satellite capabilities, wheel rim options. Guess that does it for today.:).
 

ElectricTrucking

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Threads
3
Messages
374
Reaction score
288
Location
USA
Vehicles
Porsche 911, Chevy Bolt
Even thinking what kind of options I would like. Retractable running boards, chrome molding on doors to protect from getting banged into, am/fm radio with satellite capabilities, wheel rim options. Guess that does it for today.:).
My list is to keep the price the same or lower on my configuration.
 

Mathmonkey

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2020
Threads
0
Messages
18
Reaction score
31
Location
Iowa
Vehicles
Tesla Model Y, Audi Q5, soon an R1T
My list is to keep the price the same or lower on my configuration.
I approve of this list!

I do wish they had lowered the price a little more than they did with scrapping the electrochromatic glass, but I suppose they could have put more features into the vehicle that they didnt initially plan to replace some of the cost reduction.
 

tx_rivian

Well-Known Member
First Name
Paul
Joined
Nov 4, 2020
Threads
4
Messages
84
Reaction score
107
Location
Texas
Vehicles
F150 Lightning
Aftermarket needs:

Tow Hooks and shroud
Skid Plates
Camp Kitchens
Sponsored

 
 




Top