R1S flat towing behind an RV?

[Rhidan]

CS has been confirming no flat tow for months. It's just that some folks on the forum refuse to believe it. I'm assuming this latest confirmation doesn't change anything for those people.

The issue seems to be that Rivian initially told people that their vehicles could be flat towed, including in the video linked above from May 2019. Then Rivian never issued a correction on this issue, but let CS dribble out incomplete information that made the issue less clear. People were not refusing to believe it. People were properly questioning the sort of incomplete information we have received from Rivian CS, after they made a reservation decision based on a feature Rivian said the vehicles would have.

However, it is not surprising that a Rivian vehicle or any BEV cannot be flat towed. That would really mess with the ability to use regenerative braking. There's also not a good use case for a BEV that will spend most of its life being pulled behind an RV. You would just be towing a relatively heavy EV with an ICE RV. What's the point of an electric car if you're using gasoline to tow it around most of the time? You are probably better off from an efficiency perspective with purchasing a much lighter ICE vehicle that can be flat towed. Even better yet, look for a camper that can be towed by an electric vehicle.

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[DuckTruck]

Regardless of the use-case, sad to see anyone have to give up on these vehicles for an expected feature that can't survive the move to production.

 

[StevieD]

J. R. is a member of the CS team. RJ is the founder and CEO. Not the same person...

True. I haven’t received a response from my letter to RJ.

 

[StevieD]

Regardless of the use-case, sad to see anyone have to give up on these vehicles for an expected feature that can't survive the move to production.

No matter how much i want a Rivian, I’m a full-time RVr and if I can’t flat tow it, I can’t use it. I believe that there are pretty simple solutions that I’ve posted earlier. It’s just a regrettable choice to potentially abandon a large class of users (Class A/B/C) who need TOADS to participate in their adventure experience. I personally look forward to a proper solution.

 

[StevieD]

The issue seems to be that Rivian initially told people that their vehicles could be flat towed, including in the video linked above from May 2019. Then Rivian never issued a correction on this issue, but let CS dribble out incomplete information that made the issue less clear. People were not refusing to believe it. People were properly questioning the sort of incomplete information we have received from Rivian CS, after they made a reservation decision based on a feature Rivian said the vehicles would have.

However, it is not surprising that a Rivian vehicle or any BEV cannot be flat towed. That would really mess with the ability to use regenerative braking. There's also not a good use case for a BEV that will spend most of its life being pulled behind an RV. You would just be towing a relatively heavy EV with an ICE RV. What's the point of an electric car if you're using gasoline to tow it around most of the time? You are probably better off from an efficiency perspective with purchasing a much lighter ICE vehicle that can be flat towed. Even better yet, look for a camper that can be towed by an electric vehicle.

THIS IS A POSSIBLE SOLUTION — NOT THE ONLY SOLUTION — RIVIAN WOULD NEED TO SUPPORT IT IN PARTNERSHIP WITH AFTERMARKET SUPPLIER OR INCORPORATE IT IN ITS MANUFACTURING.



Problem Statement: EV motors and components are susceptible to damage when the EV is flat towed at the speed and distances normally experienced when towed behind an RV.



Proposed Solution: Manual Hub Locks will disconnect the drive wheel(s) from the entire line thereby inhibiting motion transfer to EV drive line components, including the EV motor.



Exemplars:



Manual Hub locks like the one shown operate at the wheel to set the configuration to “free wheel” or drive train “Hub”. Since flat tow already involves outside activities to attach the EV to the RV, the wheel configuration setting can easily be done at the same time.

One internal design that may likely be changed to suit Rivian EVs involves the drive line extending to the wheel hub housing to a termination point that allows its separation from the hub when selected. In the exemplar, the termination point is part #4049. The arrangement allows the wheel to free spin or be connected to the drive axle as the user selects.

The manufacturer currently offers the product in marine grade stainless steel, different appearance options, and different vehicle configurations.



A typical set of parts supporting 4 wheels purchased today on Amazon for the right vehicle costs less than $600 .

 

[DuckTruck]

No matter how much i want a Rivian, I’m a full-time RVr and if I can’t flat tow it, I can’t use it. I believe that there are pretty simple solutions that I’ve posted earlier. It’s just a regrettable choice to potentially abandon a large class of users (Class A/B/C) who need TOADS to participate in their adventure experience. I personally look forward to a proper solution.

StevieD,

I sure hope you find a way to make it work. The only two things I know for sure about RVs are: 1) I want one, and, 2) I'm envious every time I see one rollin' down the road with toys in tow. It always leads me to daydream about what kind of fun those folks are having.

Good luck with making it happen!??

 

[DucRider]

It’s just a regrettable choice to potentially abandon a large class of users

In the big picture, the likely % of Rivian owners with a large RV is pretty small. Those looking to flat tow is even smaller.
An aftermarket solution is probably your best hope.

This also goes for other specialized uses like 37" tires and rock crawling.

Adding the additional hardware and software for either/both would add zero value to me (and most owners) while increasing cost and complexity.

I'm not completely convinced that RJ did not know that "tow charging" was not the same as "flat towing". I'm not an RV person and am more than a little surprised that hauling a 7,000 lb vehicle behind an RV is even a thing. Out of curiosity, what do you think the total annual sales would be for that purpose?

 

[thrill]

In the big picture, the likely % of Rivian owners with a large RV is pretty small. Those looking to flat tow is even smaller.
An aftermarket solution is probably your best hope.

This also goes for other specialized uses like 37" tires and rock crawling.

Adding the additional hardware and software for either/both would add zero value to me (and most owners) while increasing cost and complexity.

I'm not completely convinced that RJ did not know that "tow charging" was not the same as "flat towing". I'm not an RV person and am more than a little surprised that hauling a 7,000 lb vehicle behind an RV is even a thing. Out of curiosity, what do you think the total annual sales would be for that purpose?

It'd be yet another differentiator in this market that's likely to grow, much like 180 tailgates, ample in-vehicle power connections, etc. As for flat towing, I see quite a few vehicles (in the Southeast) being moved around that way. A trailered version of that is a far-cry in convenience.

 

[DucRider]

As for flat towing, I see quite a few vehicles (in the Southeast) being moved around that way

I see flat towed vehicles as well, but usually not 6,000Lb+ 3 row SUVs. I'm not saying there isn't a market, but it is a relatively small niche.
If you are Rivian, what is the ROI for including that capability at launch? Are they going to sell more vehicles? Are there additional potential reliability issues with hubs/disconnects and very high torque motors? Can they sell their vehicles for more money to offset the additional costs involved?

I'm sure they looked at all kinds of features that didn't make the cut for the launch versions/initial production. Removable tops were put on the back burner. Electrochromic roof got axed as did the fancy tailgate. Massage seats? 3 rows of video screens in the R1S? Full on rock crawler with 40" tires? Full sized bed for the R1T? Who knows what they considered that didn't make the cut.

 

[StevieD]

Hello Everyone,
Just joined the forum and just put a deposit on an R1S.
Very nice rig StevieD!
I did a chat yesterday with a CS rep Rivian about this subject as I too wanted a Rivian to be my toad. I was told under no circumstances could any Rivian be flat towed , I wish I had copied the response to provide you all their reasons why, direct connection to the motors and inverter damage are two that stuck In my mind. Being quite disappointed with this news I started searching other EV options for flat towing only to be further disappointed, it appears EVs do not lend themselves to flat towing for the same reasons Rivian has eluded to.
I have seen a number of complaints about the Inconsistencies of info coming from Rivian’s CS reps, until I see something in writing that clearly states Rivian vehicles can be flat towed I’m looking for a new Jeep, we’ll keep the R1S as my wife’s vehicle.

It’s disappointing that Rivian seems so focused on the problem and not a solution. When WWII Jeeps were purchased by civilians after the war, 4WD only drive was found to be a problem on paved roads as the engine and drive train were fixed to the wheel motion. (Somewhat similar problem?). Warm came up with a wheel hub disconnect that manually disconnected the drive line. Problem solved.
As you already know, you have to work outside to connect/disconnect the TOAD. How much of a problem would it be to walk around and set four wheels to “free” mode when flat towing and “locked” when disconnecting? Plus, the mechanical solution personally makes me more comfortable when flat towing. If Rivian would provide a few details of the drive line and wheel hub assemblies, perhaps an after market company could build it. That’s been done before.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

It’s disappointing that Rivian seems so focused on the problem and not a solution. When WWII Jeeps were purchased by civilians after the war, 4WD only drive was found to be a problem on paved roads as the engine and drive train were fixed to the wheel motion. (Somewhat similar problem?). Warm came up with a wheel hub disconnect that manually disconnected the drive line. Problem solved.
As you already know, you have to work outside to connect/disconnect the TOAD. How much of a problem would it be to walk around and set four wheels to “free” mode when flat towing and “locked” when disconnecting? Plus, the mechanical solution personally makes me more comfortable when flat towing. If Rivian would provide a few details of the drive line and wheel hub assemblies, perhaps an after market company could build it. That’s been done before.

You're miffed that Rivian isn't finding a solution for a niche issue, and using a WWII Jeep analogy; but in your analogy, Willis didn't develop the solution -- Warn did. The vehicle manufacturer didn't solve the problem, in your analogy -- the aftermarket vendor did.

So... Don't be miffed at Rivian. Go talk with the aftermarket and find someone where the "niche" is big enough for them to go after.

 

[socaladam]

I'm not an RV person and am more than a little surprised that hauling a 7,000 lb vehicle behind an RV is even a thing. Out of curiosity, what do you think the total annual sales would be for that purpose?

7000lbs? that's nothing.

There are RV owners who flat tow 2500 and 3500 trucks weighing in at 9k to 14k lbs.

The vast majority of RV owners tow a Jeep wrangler.


This is not all inclusive, but does give you some insight into RV ownership.

Since you're not a RV person, you either tow another vehicle behind you, or someone drives one with you. Most owners prefer to tow one.

https://www.condorferries.co.uk/rv-statistics

 

[DucRider]

7000lbs? that's nothing.

There are RV owners who flat tow 2500 and 3500 trucks weighing in at 9k to 14k lbs.

The vast majority of RV owners tow a Jeep wrangler.


This is not all inclusive, but does give you some insight into RV ownership.

Since you're not a RV person, you either tow another vehicle behind you, or someone drives one with you. Most owners prefer to tow one.

https://www.condorferries.co.uk/rv-statistics

What do you think Rivians annual sales would be for this purpose?

 

[thrill]

What do you think Rivians annual sales would be for this purpose?

More than the number that will ever ford a 3 foot stream.

 

[jjwolf120]

More than the number that will ever ford a 3 foot stream.

I think we should take that as a challenge. We should all try to ford a 3 foot stream withing the first month of ownership.

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