Potential EV Incentives

DuckTruck

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Actually Tesla was able to get the Model 3 qualified out of the gate by announcing that they would have one for <$50K sometime in the future. If Rivian wants to officially announce that they will have a 2 motor R1T (as an example) with a small pack for <$50K base at some future time, we can likely get the $2,500 from Oregon.
That's interesting to hear. I think we all know that Rivian will have vehicles in the near future that will be below $50,000, and it would be nice if there was a very basic R1T that could cross that threshold to trigger more incentives. As Tesla has shown, the features that can make the car essentially cost more than that magical minimum can be added via future OTA updates. Maybe it rolls out of the factory with a Meridian 359⁰ radio that only gets A.M. until you (or, in this case, I) pay for the upgrade after my baby r1t is delivered (yes, lowercase "r1t" was intentional).

In the meantime, I'll still offer myself up to receive my current LE R1T for under $50k if it would help free up those rebates and incentives for all. I'd even be willing to commit all financial benefits received to funding the adoption of a wayward Camp Kitchen and a second set of wheels & tires. Again, no need to thank me, it's just who I am.





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Lmirafuente

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So many good points.

I do like the idea of Made in USA get's the highest incentive. It is good for the consumer and the country to drive job growth. If you buy an import you get less of an incentive.

Affordability will come with EV manufacturers that want to capture that market.

People will buy what they want and will find a way to get it, via financing, leasing, subscription or simply compromize.

More EV options will drive more EV purchases when poeple see more EV's on the road and when they discover the performance and savings.

EV charging stations should be the incentive to drive EV adoption. If every dealership, gas station, retailer. etc... had charging stations...that is where the incentive should be focused on IMHO to take away range anxiety...I think that is part of the Infrastructure Bill, isn't it? hmmmm

Great discussion!
 

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Here is a loosely related thought/ question for this thread; Will Rivian be able to take advantage of selling BEV zero emission carbon credits (whatever the name is) similar to what Tesla has done, or will so many manufactures be on the EV bandwagon by the time of volume production to make it negligible?
 

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The "American Made" part gets sticky. The Mach e is made in Mexico...
The idea is to stimulate investments in American jobs/infrastructure, right?

https://www.nhtsa.gov/part-583-american-automobile-labeling-act-reports

NHTSA doesn't distinguish between US and Canada for "American made" labeling of parts, but does for Mexico. The Dodge CaraVan was the most "American made" for 2020 based on parts content, and even that was assembled in Canada.

If you look at motor/transmission source and final assembly, Tesla is the only manufacturer using solely US parts/labor. Rivian and Lucid are aiming to do the same. Support these manufacturers and you're supporting American jobs...?
 

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I like American made trucks and I hope they play on that a little. You see the new Hummer putting a flag into the body design but I doubt that truck or the majority of its parts will be built here.
 

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Speaking of alternatives....

764EB080-0BF2-4175-940F-921425C6613B.png

here‘s the link https://flip.it/9PFvRn to the full article.
or their website https://www.alphamotorinc.com/wolf
Seems like a neat concept, but at this point I place essentially zero faith in EV startups that only have renders to show. Everything we've seen from Alpha so far could be put together by a single talented hobbyist with some spare time and a computer. Their "product launch" is a youtube music video with a rotating render. The corporation appears to have been registered in California for all of six months or so.

Bear in mind that Rivian has been operating for 12 years, siphoning top talent from other startups, Tesla, and conventional manufacturers, with tons of time in stealth mode prior to a robust launch with mostly complete hardware. Even then, they've had to walk back early promises and delay the vehicles, and face reasonable skepticism about their ability to scale; and they only got to where they are today thanks to smart investments in production infrastructure and major backing from the likes of Amazon and Ford.

Launching a new auto manufacturer is brutal verging on impossible. If there is ever a non-trivial number of Alphas on the road, I'll be surprised to say the least.
 

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The Oregon incentive is for vehicles with a base MSRP <$50K.
That's a nice little loophole. I wonder what the thinking was behind setting it to base MSRP. Here in WA it's sales tax exemption for the first $25k of the vehicle cost (amounts to roughly $1.6k), but the total vehicle cost cannot exceed $45k. So if you wanted a long range Model 3 at $46k, you're outta luck (not that Seattleites mind, there's plenty of those on the streets!).
 
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Seems like a neat concept, but at this point I place essentially zero faith in EV startups that only have renders to show. Everything we've seen from Alpha so far could be put together by a single talented hobbyist with some spare time and a computer. Their "product launch" is a youtube music video with a rotating render. The corporation appears to have been registered in California for all of six months or so.

Bear in mind that Rivian has been operating for 12 years, siphoning top talent from other startups, Tesla, and conventional manufacturers, with tons of time in stealth mode prior to a robust launch with mostly complete hardware. Even then, they've had to walk back early promises and delay the vehicles, and face reasonable skepticism about their ability to scale; and they only got to where they are today thanks to smart investments in production infrastructure and major backing from the likes of Amazon and Ford.

Launching a new auto manufacturer is brutal verging on impossible. If there is ever a non-trivial number of Alphas on the road, I'll be surprised to say the least.
Agree to your statements...my point was really around finding alternatives...whether Alpha makes it or not, I agree with you. Alternatives like maybe even conversions from gas to electric, but in those cases, at the moment, the range on the conversions are small.

Great discussion though!
 

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The limiting of incentives through stratified-dollar thresholds tied to MSRP smells of virtue signaling. If it's important to move the public to EVs to save the planet, the government should, at worst, use a sliding percentage scale, like they do for taxes. We've already seen how Tesla gamed the system by producing one or two of the "Model 3 Unicorn" vehicle that can't be found in any significant numbers by the consumer. Tie the incentive to the final cost of a widely-available or mid-line of that vehicle and apply a set percentage based on that price. Period.

Electric vehicles are not an inexpensive proposition, especially in the early phases of any company. If you want to help the industry get a start, don't push them into making lower cost/lower revenue vehicles when they're trying to get off the ground. They need solid money-makers to make a go of it against the dynastic manufacturers who have enjoyed all kinds of historic benefits in the support they continue to receive in perpetuating their businesses. Be it protection from the direct sales model of the future (ostensibly, to protect the consumer) or tariffs against imports, they enjoy all kinds of help that newer manufacturers don't have. Limiting the incentives of the more expensive early models doesn't help to level the playing field, especially if the government is trying to shift consumer behavior. If you want all consumers to change their behavior, give all consumers an incentive to change their behavior. If that doesn't pass the smell test for those trying to change things, move forward with dropping the arbitrary 200,000 unit limit.

As others have pointed out here, most every new EV manufacturer starts production with a "Halo" model that captures the imagination of the public and helps to establish the brand. Tesla started out over a decade ago with their original Roadster, and then offered up the not-inexpensive Model S. Rivian is jumping into the market with the R1T and R1S. Lucid and Fiskar are also targeting their first entries with higher-end vehicles. These models also serve as solid revenue producers, as margins are higher for these upper-end models and help the companies gain a solid financial foothold while getting their name out there. I can't imagine any manufacturer has a business model of targeting a total of 200,000 vehicles and then closing their doors.

As a well-established brand, Chevrolet had solid, existing revenues and markets in place that allowed them to experiment with battery-powered vehicles starting 110 years ago. They tried again with my beloved Corvair in the mid-60's before giving birth to, and then killing, the EV1 in the late 90's. Fast forward to the Spark, Volt, and Bolt of the past few decades and you can see how the biggies can dabble with lower-cost EVs and survive, as these are a tiny part of their overall portfolios. The same holds true for Nissan and their lower-end Leaf.

Any talk of limiting the incentives based on MSRP is short-sighted. Tesla couldn't have made it by starting with the model 3. Nissan and Chevy had lengthy histories before dipping their toes into the EV market and didn't have to rely on incentives the way new entrants need to to move the EV market forward. Regardless of income level, incentives incentivize.
 
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One thing that I have found odd about all of the incentives that have dollar value limits is that they effectively preclude replacing the largest potential for cutting green house gas emissions. Replacing small cheap fuel efficient vehicles with small cheap fuel efficient vehicles is a relatively small dent/vehicle and an easier demographic to hit. Replacing a truck that gets 15 mpg with an EV is a significantly larger reduction in emissions, and a harder sell for the core truck group. And those are already expensive vehicles.

If they put a limit in cost, it should probably be based on vehicle class or something.
 

SeaGeo

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That's a nice little loophole. I wonder what the thinking was behind setting it to base MSRP. Here in WA it's sales tax exemption for the first $25k of the vehicle cost (amounts to roughly $1.6k), but the total vehicle cost cannot exceed $45k. So if you wanted a long range Model 3 at $46k, you're outta luck (not that Seattleites mind, there's plenty of those on the streets!).
The base machE with the tech package needed to get hand free steering lands at $45,495. 😑
 

DuckTruck

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The limiting of incentives through stratified-dollar thresholds tied to MSRP smells of virtue signaling. If it's important to move the public to EVs to save the planet, the government should, at worst, use a sliding percentage scale, like they do for taxes. We've already seen how Tesla gamed the system by producing one or two of the "Model 3 Unicorn" vehicle that can't be found in any significant numbers by the consumer. Tie the incentive to the final cost of a widely-available or mid-line of that vehicle and apply a set percentage based on that price. Period.

Electric vehicles are not an inexpensive proposition, especially in the early phases of any company. If you want to help the industry get a start, don't push them into making lower cost/lower revenue vehicles when they're trying to get off the ground. They need solid money-makers to make a go of it against the dynastic manufacturers who have enjoyed all kinds of historic benefits in the support they continue to receive in perpetuating their businesses. Be it protection from the direct sales model of the future (ostensibly, to protect the consumer) or tariffs against imports, they enjoy all kinds of help that newer manufacturers don't have. Limiting the incentives of the more expensive early models doesn't help to level the playing field, especially if the government is trying to shift consumer behavior. If you want all consumers to change their behavior, give all consumers an incentive to change their behavior. If that doesn't pass the smell test for those trying to change things, move forward with dropping the arbitrary 200,000 unit limit.

As others have pointed out here, most every new EV manufacturer starts production with a "Halo" model that captures the imagination of the public and helps to establish the brand. Tesla started out over a decade ago with their original Roadster, and then offered up the not-inexpensive Model S. Rivian is jumping into the market with the R1T and R1S. Lucid and Fiskar are also targeting their first entries with higher-end vehicles. These models also serve as solid revenue producers, as margins are higher for these upper-end models and help the companies gain a solid financial foothold while getting their name out there. I can't imagine any manufacturer has a business model of targeting a total of 200,000 vehicles and then closing their doors.

As a well-established brand, Chevrolet had solid, existing revenues and markets in place that allowed them to experiment with battery-powered vehicles starting 110 years ago. They tried again with my beloved Corvair in the mid-60's before giving birth to, and then killing, the EV1 in the late 90's. Fast forward to the Spark, Volt, and Bolt of the past few decades and you can see how the biggies can dabble with lower-cost EVs and survive, as these are a tiny part of their overall portfolios. The same holds true for Nissan and their lower-end Leaf.

Any talk of limiting the incentives based on MSRP is short-sighted. Tesla couldn't have made it by starting with the model 3. Nissan and Chevy had lengthy histories before dipping their toes into the EV market and didn't have to rely on incentives the way new entrants need to to move the EV market forward. Regardless of income level, incentives insentivize.
 
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