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Poll on info required before you order

If Rivian contacted you today to finalize your order, what additional info would you need?


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    121

SeaGeo

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Honest question: can they legally sell a car to a customer without the EPA numbers?
Edit for semi clarity: sort of.

I can't track down the exact timing online, but you will frequently see manufacturers don't have epa numbers available until literally the last minute.
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PastyPilgrim

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I think an unrestricted, unaffiliated, third-party video review/walkthrough/testing/etc. would be critical for me. At that point, just about everything that Rivian is being coy about can be known or seen (besides future/external things like accessories, charging network, etc., but aftermarket and third parties can fill in the gaps there if Rivian isn't competitive in price/availability/quality/functionality/etc. so they're less of a concern to me).
 

photontorque

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Not on the list but absolute essential to me: safety, security, and privacy.

Safety: If I buy this vehicle, I am trusting my life, my family's life, and the life of other drivers, pedestrians, cyclists etc. that this software-laden vehicle isn't going to pull a schnizzy-fritz and take us all out. What can Rivian share from all their testing to show that their vehicles are safe? Plus, the standard mechanical safety from crash-test ratings.

Security: again, these are software-laden vehicles that are connected to the internet. It's just a matter of time until someone with a sick point to make tries to hack into internet-connected vehicles. What is Rivian doing to prevent hacks?

Privacy: If I buy this vehicle, I'm laying out probably $80k or more (depending on options) on this car, which is a chunk of very hard-earned cash. Rivian is getting my money, they don't need to turn me and my information into a commodity. I give Rivian money, they give me a vehicle, end of transaction. They don't need a bunch of information about me.

Of the items on the list:

test drive

EPA evaluation plus real-world evaluation of range performance for wheel/tire combos.

Should I wait for the longer-range R1S? I can't answer this question until Rivian releases info about the longer-range R1S.

Objective, 3rd party evaluations of the vehicles. Many of us on this forum have enjoyed sipping, or guzzling, the Rivian coolaid. It can be helpful for a fresh set of independent taste buds to confirm the coolaid is refreshing, or to stay our hand and keep us from making a foolish mistake.
 

Autolycus

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ICE only :(
Edit for semi clarity: sort of.

I can't track down the exact timing online, but you will frequently see manufacturers don't have epa numbers available until literally the last minute.
I should have also been more clear: I meant specifically: can they deliver a car without the EPA numbers? Obviously they can take preorders.
 

SANZC02

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Edit for semi clarity: sort of.

I can't track down the exact timing online, but you will frequently see manufacturers don't have epa numbers available until literally the last minute.
Not sure what the final weight of the vehicles will be but curb weight over 6000 lbs or GVWR over 8500 are not required to have a label. Best I can find at the moment for the R1S with the 135 pack just misses these exceptions with;
curb weight of 5842,
payload of 1807,
and GVWR of 7650

This is from an EPA.gov FAQ.

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi/P100IENB.PDF?Dockey=P100IENB.PDF

9. How many vehicles does EPA test each year?
Auto manufacturers are responsible for testing vehicles in their laboratories according to EPA test specifcations and reporting fuel economy values to EPA.
EPA re-tests a subset of these vehicles each year at its National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Some vehicle models are selected for testing because of consumer complaints; others are selected at random. Historically, we have audited between 10% and 15% of new vehicle models (or about 150-200 vehicles), but this has grown to 15%-20% in recent years
.
 

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cwoodcox

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Security: again, these are software-laden vehicles that are connected to the internet. It's just a matter of time until someone with a sick point to make tries to hack into internet-connected vehicles. What is Rivian doing to prevent hacks?
I work in cybersecurity. Rivian far from the first to make a “software-laden” vehicle like this, and there have been plenty of people “researching” (read: hacking) connected vehicles in the last 15 years.

With the exception of Chrysler, no car manufacturer has had a life-threatening software problem relating to connected vehicles. Connected vehicles themselves don’t have a threat model that differs significantly from existing technology. Not to say there aren’t mistakes to be made, but they are bone-headed mistakes that have been made in other industries and applications, and all they have to do is not repeat them.

I don’t mean to minimize your concern, but the answer to the question, “what is Rivian doing to prevent hacks?” is probably pretty boring. Following the most basic standard security practices (which Chrysler failed at) will keep you and your vehicle as safe as possible from hacks.

Most cybersecurity breaches are caused by human errors like weak passwords and phishing, not “burning through the NCIS public firewall.” ?
 

photontorque

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I work in cybersecurity. Rivian far from the first to make a “software-laden” vehicle like this, and there have been plenty of people “researching” (read: hacking) connected vehicles in the last 15 years.
Cool! Cybersecurity is such a fascinating field, and I appreciate your feedback.

With the exception of Chrysler, no car manufacturer has had a life-threatening software problem relating to connected vehicles. Connected vehicles themselves don’t have a threat model that differs significantly from existing technology. Not to say there aren’t mistakes to be made, but they are bone-headed mistakes that have been made in other industries and applications, and all they have to do is not repeat them.

I don’t mean to minimize your concern, but the answer to the question, “what is Rivian doing to prevent hacks?” is probably pretty boring. Following the most basic standard security practices (which Chrysler failed at) will keep you and your vehicle as safe as possible from hacks.

Most cybersecurity breaches are caused by human errors like weak passwords and phishing, not “burning through the NCIS public firewall.” ?
I'm fine with a boring answer, I'd just like an answer. After all, the purpose of this thread is a list of information needed before finalizing a purchase, and these items are on my list.

I'm not in cybersecurity, but am involved with projects that lean heavily on software, and nobody writes bug-free software. As you know, there's a lot of testing and evaluation that has to happen to shake out the possible use cases of software before the especially pernicious bugs come to light.

Given (i) there has been one problem for a major manufacturer, (ii) Rivian is a new manufacturer that (I think) is building it's software from scratch, (iii) hackers will hack, I think it is helpful for Rivian to be pro-active in this regard.

The fix may be simple, as you say, which should make it low stakes for Rivian to promote their activities in this area. My sense is that having them publicly commit to what they are doing provides more internal motivation (within Rivian itself) to be mindful of the security dimensions of their product. And thus not fail where Chrysler did.
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