peashooter

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Let's all take a moment out of our day right now to bow down to Lord Elon. :rolleyes:
I was so excited about Rivian, but after seeing TESLA's approach, I am taking the blinders off and am more skeptical of them now. Imagine how far away LUCID and NIKOLA are if this is as far as Rivian has gotten.
 

peashooter

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Rivian bought the shell of a factory that required extensive reworking with no intention of rushing vehicles to the market. Except for COVID, they would be on their announced schedule of production/delivery.

Rivian has a much greater concern over quality with adequate financial resources to fully test their vehicles and assembly lines before pushing product out the the door. While not true today, Tesla has historically been on the brink of going under and needed the immediate revenue from vehicle sales to stay afloat.
The rigorous and thorough testing done by Rivian will go a long way towards preventing issues like bumpers being torn off by driving thru a puddle. They will also have the luxury of fully vetting the manufacturing process to ensure a quality fit and finish (including paint).

Different philosophies and strategies. Both can work, but when you are no longer the only game in town, product quality will become a real issue.

I'm not bashing Tesla, and my Tesla stock investment will go a long way towards paying for my Rivian - but at some point they have to start paying a bit more attention to the details. The Chinese factory is reportedly producing a much better product than in Fremont. Hopefully that will also be the case in both Germany and Austin.
That is all assumption until the actually ship a few 1,000 and we see what the quality is really like. You can bet they will have issues.
 

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But it's an apples and oranges comparison and bet, isn't it?

First, building a plant in China is nothing like building a plant here. Labor laws, environmental laws, zoning, contracting, inspection and safety rules are completely different. The Gigafactory in Shanghai was built incredibly fast, but that speed won't happen in Austin or in Germany.

Second, it took Tesla 12 years to bring the Model S to market; company founded in 2003, Model S appeared in 2012. Guess what? It will take 12 years for Rivian to bring the R1T/S to market. Company founded in 2009, production started Summer 2021.

And there are other similarities and differences. The point is what?

It took a long time before Tesla produced at volume and it has yet to return an annualized profit, seventeen years since establishment. Profits the last couple of quarters have been based on the sale of carbon offset tax credits. But I'm not knocking Tesla. It's done incredibly well and it's changed the structure and character of the global auto industry. Tremendous accomplishment.

Rivian's privately held. It doesn't have the same reporting & performance pressures Tesla does. Rivian's CEO and Tesla's are like night and day. Rivian's received $3.3 billion in private investment, a 100,000 van order from Amazon and has an order book for at least a year's worth of production. It's done incredibly well but in ways that are the very different than Tesla's accomplishments.

So if you want to lay bets on Tesla versus Rivian, do it for something meaningful. Safety ratings, quality and reliability, profit per vehicle produced, customer satisfaction, environmental impact of their production facilities (including China, Nevada, Germany and Austin versus Normal), and so on. Bet on something meaningful. Mine's bigger (faster) than yours is b.s.
Valid points, so you are saying that Rivian's 1st car will be better than Tesla's 5th? I will take those bets all day long.
 

DucRider

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I was so excited about Rivian, but after seeing TESLA's approach, I am taking the blinders off and am more skeptical of them now. Imagine how far away LUCID and NIKOLA are if this is as far as Rivian has gotten.
If I am understanding you correctly, you prefer Tesla's approach of pushing vehicles into the marketplace faster by skipping some of the testing of both the vehicles and production line?
Thorough testing is a bad thing and causes skepticism on your part?

Everything we have seen from Rivian shows a tremendous attention to detail. I have never seen that from Tesla on any of their products and that is their greatest weakness. Intentional decisions by Tesla sacrificing quality for speed/volume/profit has worked for them so far, but it won't forever. Rivian cannot afford to put out vehicles with the same quality issues that plague Tesla, and if that takes more time, I can wait.
 

jjwolf120

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Valid points, so you are saying that Rivian's 1st car will be better than Tesla's 5th? I will take those bets all day long.
I wouldn't say better necessarily, but there is certainly the opportunity for Rivian's initial fit & finish to be better than Tesla's cars up to this point. The Cybertruck will be interesting, since it eliminates a number of areas that Tesla hasn't been good at. It's hard to paint problems if there isn't any paint and it's hard to have panel gaps if there aren't any panels.
 

Coast2Coast

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peashooter, to your point in #48.

I don't think which company, Tesla or Rivian, gets their electric truck out the factory door quickest is very important. Other measures are far more important.

As I said earlier, "if you want to lay bets on Tesla versus Rivian, do it for something meaningful." Safety ratings, quality and reliability, profit per vehicle produced, customer satisfaction, environmental impact of their production facilities (including China, Nevada, Germany and Austin versus Normal), and so on. Bet on something meaningful. Mine's faster (bigger) is b.s.
 

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Just in case you missed it. This is how far away rivian is from actually delivering a car. Scary stuff.

 

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I must have missed it... that video didn't say anything about Rivian's delivery schedule
 

peashooter

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I must have missed it... that video didn't say anything about Rivian's delivery schedule
Compare both videos on how an actual car manufacturing plant looks. There is so much core equipment Rivian doesn't have in place, it's scary.
 

bajadahl

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Gotcha.... I don't pretend to know all the parts that make up an assembly line but Rivian said in their last video (I think) that a lot more would be delivered this Fall. I am guessing that they have just enough in place for a low volume run through as they finalize the details what is needed and where it's needed along the line.... It will be very interesting to see how much progress they make (and show to us) over the final 4 months of the year.... and into next spring.... Will I be disappointed if they fail.... sure.... but I'm not scared...
 

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Compare both videos on how an actual car manufacturing plant looks. There is so much core equipment Rivian doesn't have in place, it's scary.
We've only seen a small glimpse, I wouldn't assume that. Regardless, pilot production Rivians have started to roll off the line(s), and all we can do is see how things ramp.
 

ohmman

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Rivian's volumes are going to be significantly lower than Tesla's Shanghai factory, which is building ~3000 units a week. That Tesla factory can build Rivian's estimated first year production in less than 7 weeks. They should certainly look different.

I toured the Fremont factory in early 2014 when I took delivery of my Model S. It was extremely impressive but nothing like the Shanghai factory is today.
 

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I probably agree with Jehorton though it's unclear how much is ignorance versus intention.

It's now 10 months until R1Ts start rolling off the line, and that's an eternity in most production environments. Rivian's not there yet, and the question is how long will it/should it take to get there?

Setting up and running a prototype line - where Rivian is at present - is a big first step. The point is not to produce in volume. The point is to validate, test, train, improve and make incremental improvements. It's a test and validation run, nothing more.

It would be silly to fill up the factory floor with equipment and production lines without thoroughly testing and improving on the manufacturing engineering design that Rivian has in place. Perhaps Tesla's Shanghai factory fan doesn't understand the process, a process that Tesla has been known to short circuit in the past.

I want Rivian to reach volume production as soon as possible, but I don't want it to skip, short circuit, truncate or otherwise ignore or neglect a steady, step by step process of getting there. Get it done right, at the outset, without rework after production.
 
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