Lucid Air over 500 miles on a charge!

[Hmp10]

We know Mr. Rawlinson is not reluctant to use some hyperbole in his pronouncements . . . .

He may use some hyperbole in talking about how Lucid achieves various things, but there has been no hyperbole thus far in delivering what he has been promising customers for the past three years.

He said the car would have very low drag. Its 0.21 Cd was independently confirmed by Windshear in North Carolina.

He said the car would have a range of at least 400 miles. Arguments will go on for a while about what the EPA and the real ranges are, but few doubt any longer that both will be above 400 miles.

He said the car would be the most efficient large EV sedan on the market. Those arguments will also apparently go on for a while, too, but no one seems to question he has at least exceeded 4 m/kWh, which he has been stating would be the minimum efficiency at launch and which is extraordinary for a large 5-passenger EV luxury sedan.

He said the car would be 2.5 seconds or faster to 60. The actual dragstrip figures are going to be released shortly, but teasers from "E for Electric" and a German auto website (both of whom attended the drag tests) suggest the Lucid beat both a Taycan Turbo S and a Model S Performance Raven.

He said the car would have the most efficient use of space. I won't go into them here, but the interior and exterior dimensions have been released, and the Lucid has a longer passenger compartment than a Mercedes S-Class Long Wheelbase and a BMW 7 Series while being almost a foot shorter in exterior dimensions. It also has the greatest cargo capacity of any sedan, EV or ICE.

If this is hyperbole, it honestly doesn't bother me all that much.

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[jjwolf120]

If we accept that the Lucid has a 113 kWh battery and the Tesla a 100 kWh battery

I don't thing we can accept either assumption. There is evidence that Tesla's battery is larger than 100 kwh ( we don't know whether 113 kwh is the pack size or the usable amount for Lucid.

 

[Hmp10]

A question for you engineers:

If a Tesla Model S Long Range and a Model S Performance have the same size battery pack and are put through the same EPA testing procedures (which don't call for extreme performance as far as I know), why would one test out at 402 miles of range and the other at 348? Is it because the Performance version is somehow less efficient?

 

[electruck]

A question for you engineers:

If a Tesla Model S Long Range and a Model S Performance have the same size battery pack and are put through the same EPA testing procedures (which don't call for extreme performance as far as I know), why would one test out at 402 miles of range and the other at 348? Is it because the Performance version is somehow less efficient?

Don't they have different wheels, tires and/or perhaps different aero bits that would cumulatively reduce efficiency and thus range?

 

[Hmp10]

Don't they have different wheels, tires and/or perhaps different aero bits that would cumulatively reduce efficiency and thus range?

Model S offers a choice of 19" or 21" wheels, but the tires are the same width and same rolling diameter, just with a lower profile on the 21" wheels. While the 19" and 21" wheels have a different design from each other, each option is the same whether on the Long Range or the Performance.

The only difference in aerodynamics is that the Performance version includes a small spoiler on the trunk lip. However, my 2015 P90D (with 19" wheels) was identical in body style to the non-performance version, and it carried a lower range rating than the regular Model S at the time.

 

[ajdelange]

The S Performance has an EPA range of 348 miles, not 402. That might be the more appropriate comparison.

Hardly. The performance is designed for, well, performance. Bigger motors are used for more torque thereby sacrificing efficiency.

 

[ajdelange]

He may use some hyperbole in talking about how Lucid achieves various things, but there has been no hyperbole thus far in delivering what he has been promising customers for the past three years.

That statement is definitely true because he hasn't delivered anything!

 

[Hmp10]

Hardly. The performance is designed for, well, performance. Bigger motors are used for more torque thereby sacrificing efficiency.

The Lucid Air has two 600-hp motors, which add up to more output than the two Tesla Performance motors, even with the reduction to 1,000 hp due to battery limitations. So -- again -- why should the Lucid Air range be compared to the Long Range Tesla rather than the Performance Tesla?

 

[Hmp10]

That statement is definitely true because he hasn't delivered anything!

He hasn't yet delivered cars to customers. He has delivered cars to Windshear and FEV for independent testing.

I guess, then, that nothing Rivian claims about its vehicles can be taken seriously, as they haven't delivered anything yet . . . either to customers or to independent testing.

 

[electruck]

Model S offers a choice of 19" or 21" wheels, but the tires are the same width and same rolling diameter, just with a lower profile on the 21" wheels. While the 19" and 21" wheels have a different design from each other, each option is the same whether on the Long Range or the Performance.

The only difference in aerodynamics is that the Performance version includes a small spoiler on the trunk lip. However, my 2015 P90D (with 19" wheels) was identical in body style to the non-performance version, and it carried a lower range rating than the regular Model S at the time.

There are wheel/tire factors beyond just diameter and aspect ratio. Tread compound and weight can have significant impacts as can the aero of the wheel itself. I may be off on specifics but I seem to recall aero wheel option on M3 making about 10% difference in range at one point. And the spoiler may improve high speed stability (reducing lift at speed) but that comes at the expense of added drag and thus reduced range.

Do you happen to know the weights of the different wheels and the specific models of tires used?

 

[Hmp10]

I don't know the specific weights of the two wheel options, although the 21" diameter wheel/tire combination almost certainly weighs more. At least when I bought my car, the tires were the same (Continental DW) other than their profiles.

However, as the wheel and tire options are the same on both the Performance and Long Range models, the only way tire/wheel configurations would have made a difference in EPA testing is if Tesla chose to submit one car with one configuration and the other with the other configuration.

However, since the Performance version has the identical tire/wheel options as the Long Range, I cannot imagine why Tesla would have chosen the less-efficient option for the Performance version they submitted to the EPA for testing.

Certainly the rear spoiler would make a difference in aerodynamics at higher speeds. But I thought the EPA test just addressed aerodynamics through a reduction factor rather than actually testing the cars in a wind stream. Also, I think the EPA test works out to an average speed of about 48 mph, with a lot of the test simulating speeds at which aerodynamics would not come into as prominent play. I could be wrong about these two things, though.

The bottom line, though, is that the Lucid Air is at the very least on par with the Tesla Performance in terms of power output, acceleration times, and top speed. (The Lucid Air also has a small rear spoiler, by the way.)

So I still ask -- why wouldn't the proper comparison of range be between the Lucid Air and the Performance Tesla instead of the slower, less powerful Long Range?

 

[ajdelange]

He hasn't yet delivered cars to customers. He has delivered cars to Windshear and FEV for independent testing.

Yes. Are these the cars that are going to customers? Were any EPA approved tests done on thees cars?

I guess, then, that nothing Rivian claims about its vehicles can be taken seriously, as they haven't delivered anything yet . . . either to customers or to independent testing.

Seriously, yes but not as gospel. One would probably take R.J. Scaringe more seriously than Peter Rawlinson because he has much less of the aura of a con man about him nor has he made any claims that cause the seasoned engineer to say "hey, wait a minute here". Of course that is the mark of a good con man

 

[DucRider]

The Model S, X, & 3 performance versions all have different EPA ratings for various wheel sizes.

Model	City​	Hwy​	Comb​
2020 Tesla Model 3 Long Range AWD P18	332.2​	319.2​	322​
2020 Tesla Model 3 Long Range AWD P19	312.1​	294.4​	304​
2020 Tesla Model 3 Long Range AWD P20	312.1​	283.3​	299​
2020 Tesla Model S P19	349.2​	347​	348​
2020 Tesla Model S P21	329.8​	321.9​	326​
2020 Tesla Model X P20	306.6​	302.2​	305​
2020 Tesla Model X P22	276.3​	266.2​	272​

 

[electruck]

So I still ask -- why wouldn't the proper comparison of range be between the Lucid Air and the Performance Tesla instead of the slower, less powerful Long Range?

I'm staying out of that bit of discussion. Just trying to see if we could get to the bottom of the difference between Tesla packages.

 

[ajdelange]

I don't know why we have someone on a Rivian forum so determined to convince himself that Lucid makes a better car than Tesla. It should be clear if you tell someone why apples and oranges shouldn't be compared and he comes back and says we should really be comparing pomelos that you aren't getting through and that further attempts are a waste of time. So yes, I think I'll drop out of the dialogue too.

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