I wouldn't bet against Toyota ....... Mirai XLE with a 402-mile EPA-estimated driving range. *

[Dark-Fx]

With the current cost of a hydrogen generator, charging at home would not be something 99.9% of us could feasibly do, not to mention the size.

Don't need to generate at home. Lots of people have propane and fuel-oil delivered to tanks on their property. It'd have to be a pretty big tank, sure, but seems like it should be feasible for anyone who also has enough property for heating energy storage.

Sponsored

 

[Supratachophobia]

Hydrogen-powered Toyota Mirai

Toyota EVs only accounted for 1% of all deliveries in 2023. That's 110k EVs and 11MM combustion vehicles. Hydrogen engines have been raised from the dead and are now on sale at your local Toyota dealer. The Toyota Fuel cell system Mirai is selling for under $70k for its top-of-the-line end model, but filling stations are still only limited to California.

Alright kids, time to put this to rest. Here are the facts. By the time gen1 Mirai was supposed to be released, California was to have 50 hydrogen refuelling stations online.... they had 3. So few in fact that Toyota dealers were told to lay off pushing their sales. I'm fairly certain that the charging infrastructure hasn't gotten a whole lot better. And now for the truth on the infrastructure. It takes between 10-20 min for a station to recompress the hydrogen between fill-ups. Which means even if your arrive and are expecting a gas-like speed fillup, but there's were a couple cars ahead of you, your wait is going to be every bit as long as a standard EV charge session.

There is literally no benefit to personal transport hydrogen with today's infrastructure. Long-haul and/or commercial transport? Absolutely we should be pursuing this right now; perfect use-case. Fueling stations at depot or warehouse locations are easily doable, can have federal subsidies, and will increase up-time for trucks due to the platform and the lack of need to go somewhere else to refuel.

 

[MIG]

Is it compatible with Tesla-branded hydrogen stations? Oh, wait....

The wife and I signed up for the Honda fuel cell vehicle waiting list at an auto show about 20 years ago. The program died well before they hit our state and the weak link has always been sourcing fuel for the fuel cell. We're possibly within a decade of affordable (energy in < energy out) hydrogen electrolysis, but until then it's just not viable.

 

[PsyTrance]

I’ve seen comparisons between BEVs and H2 fuel cell EVs, particular in regards to infrastructure maturity and how H2 will catch up.

This is a disingenuous comparison.

I love the idea of fuel cells, and hope we sort out the last-mile delivery problem. For some applications it seems like a no-brainer - e.g. long-haul trucking. But it is far, far more challenging than moving electrons from one location to another to satisfy the delivery requirements of passenger vehicles at scale.

We need a fundamental shift in H2 creation and storage in order for this to become feasible.

technically, no electrons are delivered through the grid

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Hydrogen-powered Toyota Mirai

Toyota EVs only accounted for 1% of all deliveries in 2023. That's 110k EVs and 11MM combustion vehicles. Hydrogen engines have been raised from the dead and are now on sale at your local Toyota dealer. The Toyota Fuel cell system Mirai is selling for under $70k for its top-of-the-line end model, but filling stations are still only limited to California.

Okay Akio Toyoda. You missed April Fools by 11 days. Can Toyota build a watch with calendar? I've got a long standing description for Toyota buyers: sheeple.

Official slogan is: we make it easy. They know their customers, people who don't want to think too hard about cars—buying, operating or owning. They just want open/closed doors and find them at point A and point B. They know their customers don't want to think too hard about using a car in a different way, from what they've already known. They don't believe in BEVs because "charging is hard". Toyota [and Japan] doesn't believe in BEVs because their domestic market isn't ready or suited for it. Most homes are only wired for 100V. They don't believe in EVs because, lacking domestic resources, all raw materials have to be imported and it makes all existing investments in ICE production/sustainment more and more obsolete with each step they could take. While Toyota [and all Japanese auto brands] do business all over the world, and its domestic market pales in size to foreign markets, the thing you need understand with all Japanese corporations is they are always Japan-first in the way they think and operate their business.

They can waste spit and breath all they want on hydrogen. It means nothing if they don't do anything about making hydrogen refueling as common as EV charging. In the US, can you even drive coast to coast right now with a Mirai? California is probably the most progressive on hydrogen. Even after more than a decade of various automakers advocating for the fuel, there are still only around 55 stations in the entire state.

 

[ironpig]

Ha!

My neighbor had one. It was a nightmare to refuel. Only a few stations and the were constantly down. And if you showed up and someone was using it, you had to wait until they were done AND wait for the pump to repressurize for 20 minutes before it would work again.

It's a good idea that nobody has figured out how to implement yet.

Toyota's hydrogen converted ICE engines have some promise, but decades off.

 

[Rob Stark]

I would totally bet against Toyota.

They should be asking for Japanese government bailout in a decade or so.

 

[R1 EVY]

Well, hydrogen would crush everything in Wisconsin including ICE, EV, tricycle and hang gliders. We have the Great Lakes. Great Lakes have fresh water. Water contains hydrogen. Toyota dominates the future. 🫳

 

[Ohm Boy]

The chemistry and physics of hydrogen are there. There is nothing wrong with the notion of hydrogen as an energy source.

But I think I’ll wait for…

 

[Ohm Boy]

Agreed. I think there should be a big push to accelerate the transition of fuel-hungry transportation to hydrogen fuel cells. Not just long haul trucking, but air and sea travel as well. Each of those sectors are limited to select locations and already require somewhat specialized infrastructure, so setting up hydrogen refueling shouldn't be as complicated as it is/would be for smaller personally owned vehicles.

There is indeed a place for H2 in large scale applications of the type you mention. The concept is very much exiting the world of the theoretical into the experimental and beyond. I work as a project manager at NREL and was on a research project involving green production of steel using wind energy to power electrolyzers. Big consideration is H2 storage. But those are being addressed. See attached PDF.


Ohm Boy

 

[Prime]

We have a friend with one of these in SoCal. Stations have been down a few times in the area and Toyota ends up getting loaners for all the Murai owners. This whole hydrogen thing seems like a joke. Resale on the vehicles are next to nothing because no one in California wants to deal with the filling station issues.

 

[TexasBob]

The chemistry and physics of hydrogen are there. There is nothing wrong with the notion of hydrogen as an energy source.

But I think I’ll wait for…

Making the obvious point, we use hydrogen for nearly all our energy already:
gasoline - hydrogen
diesel - hydrogen
coal - hydrogen
solar - hydrogen
wind - hydrogen
nuclear - not hydrogen

As for using gaseous hydrogen for a transport fuel, yes, it makes roughly no sense at all.

 

[BigSkies]

Hydrogen is dumb for personal transport. Toyota's Mirai is the modern equivalent to GM's EV1. It exists simply to pretend that Toyota is doing something while simultaneously doing nothing of significance.

For those interested in hydrogen, here's my preferred take on where hydrogen might make sense.

TLDR, there's some commercial and industrial cases where hydrogen makes a lot of sense with the right subsidies. But electricity is a significantly better solution in the vast majority of cases. I wouldn't take this as gospel either. I just became an advisor to a startup that indirectly has the potential to eliminate fuels (both hydrogen and natural gas) from one of those "unavoidable" sources. It's too early to tell if it will work yet, but there's a lot of opportunity in alternative technologies here.

I wouldn't count Toyota out, albeit for entirely different reasons. Building an EV business involves vaporizing a LOT of capital. Everyone from Ford to Rivian to GM is burning through billions in capital proving that they can make it in the EV market. Some won't make it, including the large carmakers. I suspect that Toyota will swoop in and buy a different EV company for far less than it will cost them to build their own EV platform.

 

[ThatOneGuy]

Hydrogen is dumb for personal transport. Toyota's Mirai is the modern equivalent to GM's EV1. It exists simply to pretend that Toyota is doing something while simultaneously doing nothing of significance.

For those interested in hydrogen, here's my preferred take on where hydrogen might make sense.

TLDR, there's some commercial and industrial cases where hydrogen makes a lot of sense with the right subsidies. But electricity is a significantly better solution in the vast majority of cases. I wouldn't take this as gospel either. I just became an advisor to a startup that indirectly has the potential to eliminate fuels (both hydrogen and natural gas) from one of those "unavoidable" sources. It's too early to tell if it will work yet, but there's a lot of opportunity in alternative technologies here.

I wouldn't count Toyota out, albeit for entirely different reasons. Building an EV business involves vaporizing a LOT of capital. Everyone from Ford to Rivian to GM is burning through billions in capital proving that they can make it in the EV market. Some won't make it, including the large carmakers. I suspect that Toyota will swoop in and buy a different EV company for far less than it will cost them to build their own EV platform.

This is great. I'm bookmarking your take to read later!

 

[SciGuy]

I almost bought a Mirai when the promotions and incentives took the price down to the high $20Ks. Then I saw a YouTube video of the terrible fueling experience and I gave up on the idea. Wait times are long at fueling stations due to nozzle freezing or the pump being out of order. With EVs taking off it’s highly unlikely hydrogen will get any more traction.

Sponsored